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Penalty Fare Sting at Waterloo
I've just been stung by a veritable army of Penalty Fare Commandants and community support officers at Waterloo.
I think the whole operation was botched, and I was unfairly fined, so I'm going to appeal, and I would to know what you think my chances are, and what the best way to go about the process would be.
At about 6.20 am I went on the London Overground to Gunnersbury using my oyster card, then at about 19.30 am I traveled from Chiswick to Waterloo.
- When I got to Chiswick station, one of the ticket machines was broken, somebody was having an in depth chat with the man behind the desk and the other ticket machine had a massive que.
- After waiting for 7 minutes I finally got to the ticket machine hoping to be able to swipe my oyster card on the little scanner - found out it didn't work (don't actually know what that thing is for).
- I proceeded to attempt to buy a young person's single to Waterloo, but for some reason beyond comprehension the young person's discount card increases the fare that my friends had bought without the discount card... so I was forced once again to start over... eventually it came to the payment screen - I inserted my card - it had multiple read errors.
- By this point the train was pulling in, for a start, I didn't want to get my card locked (this has happened to me before when card readers fail too many times) and I had already spent about 14 minutes faffing about with the failing machine, the ques and the insane increased "discount" fare, so I hoped on the train.
- My one critical error at this point was to not go looking for the guard, I failed to do so partly because my friend told me you could use oyster cards at the other end with the new barrier system.
- Got to Waterloo, headed down into the Northern Line station and found the previously mentioned barriers...
- My friend in front of me scanned his oyster card, and went through with no problem. I scanned mine, and it wouldn't let me through.
- The moment I was seen to be having trouble I was swarmed upon by the ten aforementioned fine people and community support officers, honestly making me feel like a criminal.
- I asked them why my oyster card was not working, they decided to answer with a question "what station did you travel from", then "you are being charged with a £20 penalty fare"
- After the women decided to repeat herself again and again despite my explanations, I accepted the fine (although I can appeal)
- What she failed to notice is that I didn't sign the fine form
To recap:
1. Only one machine was working during rush hour due to their failiure to have the other machine working, it took me 7 minutes to get to the machine, exeeding the "5 minutes" they endevour to meet in their customer charter:
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/Customerservice/Passengers+Charter.htm#Buyingyourticket
2. The incomprehensible fact that a normal peak fare is cheaper than a Young Person's Railcard peak fare further delayed my purchase.
3. The ticket machine simply did not accept my card nor give me an option to swipe my oyster card, I don't know why. I did not have any change.
4. My Oyster card was low on credit, and there was no way to top up before going through the barrier. My friend with a full card went through without a problem despite the fine women telling me you CANNOT use pay as you go. On the fine form there is actually a tick box for Oyster Card, like they planned to sting people with them - it really gets on my nerves.
5. I made significant efforts to pay my £3.10 fare, and I believe SWT prevented me from using their service in an acceptable fashion (as outlined in their own customer charter).
6. On the fine form for £20 there is a signature section:
"I confirm the personal journey and the details given are correct. I have been informed of the appeals procedure and understand that I have 21 dats from the date shown at the top of this notice to finalise this matter"
I DID NOT SIGN, and the women did not make me sign.
Legally speaking, surely I have grounds to complain, she kept banging on about advertising the barriers, which is totally irrelavant for somebody who barely ever uses overground trains (where these posters apparently exist). I had no idea an oyster card wouldn't work AND apprently is does work for some people.
SWT broke their passenger's charter (which they do constantly for the sake of profit I might add, I've had many run ins with their bus services in council meetings etc.), I made what I consider the Passenger Charter considers to be reasonable attempts to pay my fare.
When asked "how would you have payed for your fare if we were not here to fine you", I replied, my Oyster card - to which they had no reply other than "it doesn't work" (which is a plain lie). AND I wanted to pay by card but the machine wouldn't let me do it.
I didn't sign the confirmation of details section of the fine notice - clearly this is negligant of the fine enforcement women - further more legally speaking, am I even obligated to pay a fine when I havn't signed that box? It's obviously there for some legal reason, which I intend to take full advantage of.
I don't believe South West Trains has done me over again, after years of third world grade service, overcharching of students, cutting bus services and not refunding year pass holders... they have already cheated and lied their way to hundreds of pounds worth of my small income as a student, and always put profit above reason. I'm sick of it, and I'll be damned if I pay this fine. :mad:
What are my chances, surely if nothing else the fact that I didn't sign in the box makes the whole thing void?
Cheers guys.
I think the whole operation was botched, and I was unfairly fined, so I'm going to appeal, and I would to know what you think my chances are, and what the best way to go about the process would be.
At about 6.20 am I went on the London Overground to Gunnersbury using my oyster card, then at about 19.30 am I traveled from Chiswick to Waterloo.
- When I got to Chiswick station, one of the ticket machines was broken, somebody was having an in depth chat with the man behind the desk and the other ticket machine had a massive que.
- After waiting for 7 minutes I finally got to the ticket machine hoping to be able to swipe my oyster card on the little scanner - found out it didn't work (don't actually know what that thing is for).
- I proceeded to attempt to buy a young person's single to Waterloo, but for some reason beyond comprehension the young person's discount card increases the fare that my friends had bought without the discount card... so I was forced once again to start over... eventually it came to the payment screen - I inserted my card - it had multiple read errors.
- By this point the train was pulling in, for a start, I didn't want to get my card locked (this has happened to me before when card readers fail too many times) and I had already spent about 14 minutes faffing about with the failing machine, the ques and the insane increased "discount" fare, so I hoped on the train.
- My one critical error at this point was to not go looking for the guard, I failed to do so partly because my friend told me you could use oyster cards at the other end with the new barrier system.
- Got to Waterloo, headed down into the Northern Line station and found the previously mentioned barriers...
- My friend in front of me scanned his oyster card, and went through with no problem. I scanned mine, and it wouldn't let me through.
- The moment I was seen to be having trouble I was swarmed upon by the ten aforementioned fine people and community support officers, honestly making me feel like a criminal.
- I asked them why my oyster card was not working, they decided to answer with a question "what station did you travel from", then "you are being charged with a £20 penalty fare"
- After the women decided to repeat herself again and again despite my explanations, I accepted the fine (although I can appeal)
- What she failed to notice is that I didn't sign the fine form
To recap:
1. Only one machine was working during rush hour due to their failiure to have the other machine working, it took me 7 minutes to get to the machine, exeeding the "5 minutes" they endevour to meet in their customer charter:
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/Customerservice/Passengers+Charter.htm#Buyingyourticket
2. The incomprehensible fact that a normal peak fare is cheaper than a Young Person's Railcard peak fare further delayed my purchase.
3. The ticket machine simply did not accept my card nor give me an option to swipe my oyster card, I don't know why. I did not have any change.
4. My Oyster card was low on credit, and there was no way to top up before going through the barrier. My friend with a full card went through without a problem despite the fine women telling me you CANNOT use pay as you go. On the fine form there is actually a tick box for Oyster Card, like they planned to sting people with them - it really gets on my nerves.
5. I made significant efforts to pay my £3.10 fare, and I believe SWT prevented me from using their service in an acceptable fashion (as outlined in their own customer charter).
6. On the fine form for £20 there is a signature section:
"I confirm the personal journey and the details given are correct. I have been informed of the appeals procedure and understand that I have 21 dats from the date shown at the top of this notice to finalise this matter"
I DID NOT SIGN, and the women did not make me sign.
Legally speaking, surely I have grounds to complain, she kept banging on about advertising the barriers, which is totally irrelavant for somebody who barely ever uses overground trains (where these posters apparently exist). I had no idea an oyster card wouldn't work AND apprently is does work for some people.
SWT broke their passenger's charter (which they do constantly for the sake of profit I might add, I've had many run ins with their bus services in council meetings etc.), I made what I consider the Passenger Charter considers to be reasonable attempts to pay my fare.
When asked "how would you have payed for your fare if we were not here to fine you", I replied, my Oyster card - to which they had no reply other than "it doesn't work" (which is a plain lie). AND I wanted to pay by card but the machine wouldn't let me do it.
I didn't sign the confirmation of details section of the fine notice - clearly this is negligant of the fine enforcement women - further more legally speaking, am I even obligated to pay a fine when I havn't signed that box? It's obviously there for some legal reason, which I intend to take full advantage of.
I don't believe South West Trains has done me over again, after years of third world grade service, overcharching of students, cutting bus services and not refunding year pass holders... they have already cheated and lied their way to hundreds of pounds worth of my small income as a student, and always put profit above reason. I'm sick of it, and I'll be damned if I pay this fine. :mad:
What are my chances, surely if nothing else the fact that I didn't sign in the box makes the whole thing void?
Cheers guys.
0
Comments
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Just tell them what you say here. I am sure they will drop it.
Oyster PAYG won't open the barriers for South West Trains but Travelcards on Oyster will.0 -
Aye thanks for the response, it's worth a shot anyway isn't it?
I'm interested with regard to this Travelcard thing... it has to be a Travelcard specific to SWT right?
I would be amazed if my friend has one of those... he's an American living in London, I can't think of any reason for him having a Travelcard, yet the barrier gave him no problem. Very interesting (not to mention frustrating).
I would love to know what legal ground I stand on with regard to not signing it... technically speaking I have not agreed to the journey details, I am not informed of the appeals procedure AND I don't know that I have 21 days to finalise the matter... I don't suppose somebody with legal knowledge could let me know where I stand?0 -
If what you are saying is true that one ticket machine was broke and that there was a long queue at the other (and the ticket office), you have good grounds to appeal.
I suggest you read up on how your railcard works if you were so suprised about it making the fare more expensive in the morning peak.0 -
Just tell them what you say here. I am sure they will drop it.
Oyster PAYG won't open the barriers for South West Trains but Travelcards on Oyster will.
i'm sure they won't! OP, do a search on here and see how many fines similar to your have been upheld!
As you yourself said, you should have gone to find the guard on the train. you knew it, but didn't do it.
I pay full price for my journeys with swtrains every day - and there are huge notices everywhere at the stations telling you what will happen if you travel without a valid ticket.0 -
I'm interested with regard to this Travelcard thing... it has to be a Travelcard specific to SWT right?
I would be amazed if my friend has one of those... he's an American living in London, I can't think of any reason for him having a Travelcard, yet the barrier gave him no problem. Very interesting (not to mention frustrating).
No, it's a standard travelcard that includes overland train, tube and buses according to zone.
Your pal may well have one if they travel round london daily, as it's by far the easiest system.
ooh, and there are MASSIVE signs saying that oyster payg doesn't work on swtrains services!
0 -
tinkerbell84 wrote: »ooh, and there are MASSIVE signs saying that oyster payg doesn't work on swtrains services!
Be as that may, I've never noticed them. Such things only work for people that use overland trains regularly.
Anyway, what obligation does the train company have to you as a passenger?
The operator has a monopoly on a service, and I believe uses it to rake in as much profit as possible in whatever way possible - these fines being one such method.
The point is, they couldn't be arsed to fix their machine, I waited beyond what THEY deem reasonable to wait at a machine, my card was rejected and I had no other way to pay, I assumed my oyster card would work - it didn't but someone else's did. If you don't agree that legally speaking I might be refunded on these grounds, you must surely agree that such a fine in this case was morally unreasonable, especially since the fine women had the option to charge me the cost of a single fare. I tried to pay, I wanted to pay, I couldn't pay, so I counted on being able to pay at the other end - I couldn't.
Anyway, perhaps all of that is irrelevant, I didn't sign the form? Isn't that a massive slipup? It displays not only a faliure of the enforcement personale to fulfil their obligation to me, but also potentially means I could be entirely ignorant of the fact I have to pay the fine or that I have a right to appeal. I would love to get some legal advice or views on this part of my complaint. Would the citizens advice beurea help me work out what to do legally?
Having only just started out in life, I havn't a clue what I should do. I am going to appeal, but there must be other things I can do, espescially with regard to the possible invalidity of the fine documentation.
0 -
Hmmm...........
They got me in 1995 similar situation. Got off train at Kings X (from Luton Airport) went to underground. Never passed a barrier, boarded train and got nailed at Waterloo. Refused to pay fine then £10 I think big fight too it ombudsman. Lot's of hassle time and effort I still lost and ended up paying. :mad:0 -
South West Trains just infuriates me, I've had contact with their low level staff in incidents like this, as well as their executives - everything about them is apathy and profit - always stepping on the grey area of the law and keeping hidden agendas.
It's just depressing, I really needed that £20, it's typical of course, always bought my tickets before - even have the railcard for Pete's sake. While they stand around clamping down on people like me, I watch the chavs get away with whatever they want because they are intending to break the law and prepare for it.
The funny thing is, I wouldn't mind paying up if it were the government, or if I had broken the law or anything - but for a mistake - to SWT...
Oh well. I should be used to being trodden on I suppose.
Thanks all for your help. I'll get them back one day. I have to promise myself that.0 -
South West Trains just infuriates me, I've had contact with their low level staff in incidents like this, as well as their executives - everything about them is apathy and profit - always stepping on the grey area of the law and keeping hidden agendas.
It's just depressing, I really needed that £20, it's typical of course, always bought my tickets before - even have the railcard for Pete's sake. While they stand around clamping down on people like me, I watch the chavs get away with whatever they want because they are intending to break the law and prepare for it.
The funny thing is, I wouldn't mind paying up if it were the government, or if I had broken the law or anything - but for a mistake - to SWT...
Oh well. I should be used to being trodden on I suppose.
Thanks all for your help. I'll get them back one day. I have to promise myself that.
sounds like you use SWT a lot/regularly 0 -
South West Trains just infuriates me, I've had contact with their low level staff in incidents like this, as well as their executives - everything about them is apathy and profit - always stepping on the grey area of the law and keeping hidden agendas.
It's just depressing, I really needed that £20, it's typical of course, always bought my tickets before - even have the railcard for Pete's sake. While they stand around clamping down on people like me, I watch the chavs get away with whatever they want because they are intending to break the law and prepare for it.
The funny thing is, I wouldn't mind paying up if it were the government, or if I had broken the law or anything - but for a mistake - to SWT...
Oh well. I should be used to being trodden on I suppose.
Thanks all for your help. I'll get them back one day. I have to promise myself that.
Actually, you have. A penalty fare will go to court if you do not pay it.0
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