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Act now on mis-sold endowments: new article
Comments
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Originally posted by mayb
I love the way you keep your cool when all about you are losing theirs. Good Luck.
I find that plenty of ice in the G&T helps mayb.
It's knowing that others are out there in the same predicament as me and fighting the same battle that keeps me sane. Skint!-but sane:rotfl:
Regards
Crazy SaverIf only I knew then what I know now0 -
outcome of cases resolved by adjudicators
(resolved by mediation, recommended settlements and adjudications)mortgage endowment cases
(67,774 cases resolved)- In 46% of cases, the adjudicator found that the firm had treated the customer’s complaint fairly.
- In 1% of cases, the firm had made an offer to the customer but the adjudicator negotiated an improved settlement.
- In 31% of cases, the adjudicator found that the firm had not treated the customer’s complaint fairly.
- In 2.5% of cases, the customer withdrew their complaint.
- In 19.5% of cases, the complaint was found to be outside our jurisdiction (for example, because it was made out of time).
cases other than mortgage endowments
(42,455 cases resolved)- In 59% of cases, the adjudicator found that the firm had treated the customer’s complaint fairly.
- In 6% of cases, the adjudicator found that the firm had generally treated the customer’s complaint fairly – but the firm still agreed a goodwill payment.
- In 10% of cases, the firm had made an offer to the customer but the adjudicator negotiated an improved settlement.
- In 12.5% of cases, the adjudicator found that the firm had not treated the customer’s complaint fairly.
- In 8% of cases, the customer withdrew their complaint.
- In 4.5% of cases, the complaint was found to be outside our jurisdiction (for example, because it was made out of time).
what newspapers do consumers read who complain to the ombudsman?
The chart below shows the newspapers that the consumers who used our service during the year told us they read. This information helps us tailor our messages more effectively to target the people who do – and don’t – know about and use the ombudsman service.
Daily Mail / Mail on Sunday25%The Times / Sunday Times13%The Telegraph / Sunday Telegraph12%The Express / Sunday Express9%The Sun / News of the World7%The Mirror / Sunday Mirror6%The Guardian / Observer6%The Independent /
Independent on Sunday4%Financial Times4%Scottish and Northern Irish titles3%other newspaper (including regional publications)11%
Here is ratio of whom is being complained about:firms complained about by sectorlife insurance and investment product providers45%banks26%independent financial advisers (IFAs)14%general insurers7%building societies3%mortgage and general insurance intermediaries3%other (including fund managers and friendly societies)2%
Here is a stat that backs up everything we say about salesforces:
Half of the complaints referred to us during the year related to just 12 of the largest financial services groups. In contrast, less than 10% of our work comes from the 99% of firms that each send us fewer than 25 complaints annually. We have set up an internal taskforce to look at how we handle complaints about firms that have only very few complaints with us. We have already improved the guidance we give to these firms at the initial stages of our process. But we want to look at additional ways of improving the information we give these firms – and at increasing the efficiency with which we handle their cases.
The rejection rates about the best you are going to get from the FOS on their annual report.I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.0 -
Wonderful dunstonh - lots of stats there - nothing to show the number of fraudulent complaints made to the Ombudsman though.
I am also totally confused about the relevance of the newspapers. The Telegraph article you quoted earlier had a qote from the Ombudsman saying they were the ones making people aware of their rights to complain. So perhaps they are the instrument of their own torture or perhaps they are just all Daily Mail Readers themselves.
I am sure that many of the complaints are made about a small number of firms. That being the case why doesn't the Ombudsman just assume that if that particular firm is involved he should uphold it willy nilly? There is no reason to believe that every firm rejects the complaints made against it and forces the complainant to go to the Ombudsman either.
If the firm settles, as my own did for my mortgage endowment, presumably it never makes any statistics at all. Or perhaps this is included in the figures showing the cases where the firm treated the customer completely fairly do you think?
Now who was it who said - there are lies, damn lies and statistics?0 -
the other stats were posted as I thought they were interesting and reflect what is often said here.
At the end of they day mayb, you believe that because you were mis-sold, that everyone was. It is clear from your posts that you cannot bring yourself to accept that people try it on. Despite quotes from those in charge of the complaints process and even posts made on this forum by individuals who ask how they can get things by telling lies.I am sure that many of the complaints are made about a small number of firms. That being the case why doesn't the Ombudsman just assume that if that particular firm is involved he should uphold it willy nilly?
It would penalise the good advisers that work at that firm, even if they are in a minority.
If we work on the majority basis as you suggest, that less than a third of mortgage complaints to the FOS result in a consumer complaint being upheld. So, should we just reject them all because most complaints are not upheld.I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.0 -
Crazy_Saver wrote: »I know as well as everyone else that "bad performance" isn't grounds for complaint, but it is a very "bitter pill to swallow" after trusting "the system" and looking forward to that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that was painted for my husband and I back in the 80s/90s.
Remeber Mr helpful.HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE A WOMAN SCORNED:mad:
I realise many people are affected by the lack of numerical performance of their endowments. The problem was that back in 1991 they had done well so advisers continued to sell them. The fact that investment returns took a downturn is not the advisers fault and it does not make the policy miss sold. This is something Mayb refuses to accept but its a bit like saying all internal combustion engines (cars ,planes etc) are miss sold because they are now suspected of causing global warming and killing the planet. A good fund manager would I think be expected to make about 3% over inflation and this has dropped a lot since the 70's 80's and 90's so the endowments are off target. Nothing to do with the sale. In your case I would be concerned about the churning as this could easily be a miss sale. As I said earlier you ironicaly have sites like this to thank for the FOS being flooded with false complaints which leads to them probably missing some of the genuine info.
There are ways of getting back on track as long as you dont see it as a battle between two ideals ie endowmnet versus repaymentI like to give people as many choices as possible to do what I want them to. (Milton H Erickson I think)0 -
Originally posted by Mr helpful
The fact that investment returns took a downturn is not the advisers fault and it does not make the policy miss sold.
A good fund manager would I think be expected to make about 3% over inflation and this has dropped a lot since the 70's 80's and 90's so the endowments are off target. Nothing to do with the sale.
I also asked if I could instruct them to move the funds to somewhere that would give me a better return.
The reply was,
"I'm sorry, we are not allowed to give advice on any of our other products"
I know this is no reflection on the advice given on these boards, but can you understand why people like myself feel so frustrated. I don't understand the financial world well enough to be able to sort this mess out on my own and Zurich are as good as useless!In your case I would be concerned about the churning as this could easily be a miss sale.
Would that help our case with an appeal to the FOS do you think?If only I knew then what I know now0 -
The reply was,
"I'm sorry, we are not allowed to give advice on any of our other products"
I know this is no reflection on the advice given on these boards, but can you understand why people like myself feel so frustrated. I don't understand the financial world well enough to be able to sort this mess out on my own and Zurich are as good as useless!
If you want advice, you get it from advisers. Unless you have an ongoing relationship with an adviser, you have to be the pro-active one and ask for it to be reviewed.I will probably try to force this issue a bit further,
A policy cancellation into another is not a mis-sale. Failure to have it documented to the required level and you being financially worse off because of it is a mis-sale. This would apply to charges mainly and not future returns as charges are known but future returns are not.I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.0 -
Just had a letter back from Barclays to say that I am to late to apply for a missold mortgage endownment. Even though I did write another letter and appeal they still say no and say that the ombusman would not consider my complaints either. I know I have received letters to say that my mortgage may be at risk but I have never received a letter to say I could complain and they say they have sent me.0
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You are timebarred. It is three years from the first notification of a significant risk of shortfall. Most of these issued in 2002/3.
If the timebar is valid, then there is nothing you can do.I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.0 -
Now dunstonh I am not that hot on maths but as I understand it you are saying that 1/3rd of complaints to the Ombudsman are upheld. On a previous post you linked to a Telegraph article claiming 42% of complaints to the Ombudsman failed. I make this a total of 75% - I wonder what happened to the 25% that neither were upheld or failed! This of course does not take in to account the number of complaints that are upheld by the Companies themselves and never go to the Ombudsman. Just shows how you can make stats say anything you want them to really.
At least we have stopped calling them fraudulent claims now which is a bonus. Not upheld does not necessarily mean not missold and certainly does not mean fraudulent.
I feel higher percentages will be 'not upheld' as so many are now putting in claims under pressure of the time bar - the criteria of proof will shift more heavily on to the claimant or the industry will have to pay out large sums of money all at once -even to service 33% of upheld claims.
I would remind MrHelpfull that I did not have to take my mortgage endowment claim to the Ombudsman as his memory appears to be failing him again on this count.:rolleyes:
Mr Helpfull I can understand that you and other advisers may feel bitter at being tarred with the same brush as those that missold these endowment policies, but I don't understand why that should lead you to deny that these things were missold on the scale that they so obviously were. I would also remind you that the title of this thread is "Act now on mis-sold endowments" and you are unlikely to find much support on this side of the fence for your theories of why we were not missold them.
"I realise many people are affected by the lack of numerical performance of their endowments." Yes Mrhelpfull - in fact the only people not affected in this way are likely to be people like - well - financial advisers. They would have seen what was happening and moved their money elsewhere. Then of course there will be those who pay financial advisers and they would have been told to move their money elsewhere. That left the less financialy adept or endowed to fend for ourselves and take the hit on our own. Do forgive us if we are a little annoyed by that.:mad:
As posted by Crazy Saver and posed by many others .....
"When the policy started to decline, why didn't you re-invest or move my money to somewhere more suitable, instead of letting it "filter away"?.....
I also asked if I could instruct them to move the funds to somewhere that would give me a better return."
Good questions .......... along with - why didn't you tell me what was happening right away? Why did I have to be warned through the media? Why didn't you warn me before the FSA took this in hand? Why didn't you explain this to me when you sold it to me? Why did you sell me something that never had a hope of reaching its target because these things had already started to fail? Why have you introduced a time bar? And oh so many more.
Instead we hear complaints that it is the fault of the media and sites such as this who encourage people to make a claim of misselling - that is what is causing the problem is it? I have this funny feeling that if these financially adept people, who knew what they were doing when they bought them and kept their endowment policies despite them failing - and are now attempting to make a claim - that would make them financially totally inept wouldn't it? How would this make them fraudsters - if they knew what they were doing why have they still got them? Why on earth would they be posting here???0
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