Act now on mis-sold endowments: new article

heather8

Thanks dunstonh



Target growth rate of 9% is high. The ones I have running assumed 5%. I would rather target lower and come in higher than the other way round.

The documentation definalty shows 3 different rates.


I cannot recall the change date but I am sure by 1997, the figures were 5,7 & 9% and you would have expected 7%. Advisers do get the choice to amend the target growth rate though.)

Why would a IFA change it? To make it look more profitable?

Although the transaction to do this is a doddle (two sides of A4 on a quick application takes care of it), you need to know the investment funds you want to go into and make sure the risk and potential of the funds matches your requirements. If you dont feel ready to do that yet, then you should seek advice from an IFA. Now I know you wont be happy with the one you have seen but there are some very good ones out there and most of the bad ones have gone in the last 5-10 years. Ask if friends have an IFA they use (not tied advisers, like those from the banks or insurance companies). Word of mouth is a good way to find someone (of any trade).[/QUOTE]

My final question, how do I find out where the IFA is now to make a claim. Also how much roughly would a IFA charge to re-schedule things, so we do reach the target of 58,000 in 10.5 years?
Thanks for your help

mayb_2

Renmure - sounds to me like you were missold your endowments and if you were to complain to the Ombudsman or equivalent they would have to produce those documents to him and some proof of the meetings having taken place if they were to uphold their contention that you did receive proper advice etc.


This is a quote from the Which site. It may be worth a search through the site to see if they have some wording on their letter generators etc relevant to that.

First complain to the firm who employed the adviser who sold you the endowment policy. Firms must have a proper complaints process and will be able to tell you about it.

Consider your grounds for complaint and find as much of your paperwork as you can: you’ll need the policy number of your endowment and their address. You can also request a copy of your endowment file from your endowment company when you make the complaint.

It may be worth contacting the endowment company to see what they have on file.

Perhaps if you make it clear that you are not satisfied and are aware that you are entitled to receive a copy of your endowment file they may stop trying to brush you off with a flat no.

However, If the letter you have received from the Solicitors is their final response to your complaint and you are not satisfied with it you have a right to take this to the Financial Ombudsman for consideration. You must complete the firms complaints process before you can take this further so if they haven't told you what that is you need to ask them spell it out and proceed along those lines until that has been exhausted. If it does not state on their correspondence that this is the final response perhaps you could write asking them about the endowment file and to confirm that this is intended to be their final response to your complaint.

You could then move on to the next stage which is normally a complaint to the Ombudsman. You can telephone the Ombudsman to make your initial complaint - they will ask you some basic questions and then send paperwork for you to complete and the process has begun.

It is over a year since I went through this process myself and things may have changed. The Company I was complaining about actually sent me all of the information from the FSA relating to complaining to the Ombudsman etc and made it clear to me how I should go about this. Perhaps you could speak to the FSA itself for advice if you feet that the firm is not following the normal proceedures when dealing with your claim.

I do hope someone with more up to date information responds to your post but hope this might help a bit.

dunstonh

Renmure - sounds to me like you were missold your endowments and if you were to complain to the Ombudsman or equivalent they would have to produce those documents to him and some proof of the meetings having taken place if they were to uphold their contention that you did receive proper advice etc.

The Law Society of Scotland. However, dont expect much. The FOS will not get involved as Scottish solicitors were not within their remit at that time.

I assume I am entitled to ask for a copy of the advisors notes/questionaire etc?

No you are not. Well, you can ask but they can decline to supply it and are within their rights to do so.

I had also assumed that if it showed me to have been advised appropriately then it would have been the first thing they sent me.

Yes, when refusing a claim, you will find many firms will produce the proof.

dunstonh

Target growth rate of 9% is high. The ones I have running assumed 5%. I would rather target lower and come in higher than the other way round.

The documentation definalty shows 3 different rates.

Of those three different rates, one usually is below target, one is on target and one is above target. Which one is on target (or closest if no exact match)?

I cannot recall the change date but I am sure by 1997, the figures were 5,7 & 9% and you would have expected 7%. Advisers do get the choice to amend the target growth rate though.)

Why would a IFA change it? To make it look more profitable?

7% was the most common default and the few I did on endowment form I lowered to 4.4% and with ISAs 5%. That reduces the risk of shortfall by increasing the monthly payment to go directly into the investment. At the end you would get back a larger figure as you paid more into it.

9% would increase the risk but lower the monthly payment to make it cheaper. At the end you would get back a lower figure as you paid less into it.

The ability to be able to alter the target growth rate was to help with costs and different risk profiles.

My final question, how do I find out where the IFA is now to make a claim. Also how much roughly would a IFA charge to re-schedule things, so we do reach the target of 58,000 in 10.5 years?
Thanks for your help

The advising firm has responsibiity for that adviser. If the firm is still there, then you write to them. If the firm has gone, you can look up the adviser on the FSA register and see if they are still authorised.

If you still have the "terms of business" document, the address to complain to will be on there.

If you have no luck with the FSA register (as it isnt the most user friendly site), Private Message me with his details (so we dont name on the forums) and I will take a look and tell you what it means. Hopefully, he still exists or was attached to a network.

As for re-doing the ISA with a proper investment spread, you would expect 3% of the contribution as a maximum charge to be levied. The industry average is 1.5%. Personally, I would be looking for the amount in the ISA already to be transferred at nil cost and 1% on the contributions. The charge is not paid by cheque, they deduct it from the monthly contribution. i.e. £50 = 50p if 1%.

If you want to be spurred on with this, you are paying charges which are going to the adviser you saw or if he is gone, the firm he was working with. If neither of those no longer exist, then L&G keep it for themselves. Chances are you are paying maximum charges as well.

mayb_2

I assume I am entitled to ask for a copy of the advisors notes/questionaire etc?


No you are not. Well, you can ask but they can decline to supply it and are within their rights to do so.

Why are they within their rights to do so dunstonh - what rights are those?

Yes, when refusing a claim, you will find many firms will produce the proof

If they exist why would any company refuse to supply documents unless they showed something they didn't want the customer to see? They are refusing the claim in this case so why not produce the proof if it exists?

You have told me that before but when I asked for them a second time from the company I was dealing with I was sent them without any comment. They had been altered using a slightly different pen and some unsubtle copying but they did send them. That was before the case went to the Ombudsman so I am sure they would not have sent them if they had a 'right' not to.

Has anybody else been refused these documents?

dunstonh

Why are they within their rights to do so dunstonh - what rights are those?

Anyone can ask anything. There is nothing to say you cant ask. They can refuse though.

If they exist why would any company refuse to supply documents unless they showed something they didn't want the customer to see? They are refusing the claim in this case so why not produce the proof if it exists?

Its unlikely they would refuse but if you are asking for your file in an attempt to find errors and then complain about them, then that will usually be refused and they are allowed to. Its down to the company involved though.

Has anybody else been refused these documents?

Yes and there was a court case about it which changed the process of a number of companies. In the past you were given them almost automatically. Since that case, more companies are refusing.

mayb_2

So are you saying they have rights and we don't as the bottom line here then?

If you have made a complant and have asked for your file they do not have a right to refuse you. They may refuse to do it but it is not a right that they are exercising but a choice. If the company or IFA or solicitor etc refuses to pass on the file once you have made a complaint and they refute your claim, they can be taken to the Ombudsman and he will insist on seeing it.

This is an attempt by the company etc, to get rid of you and your claim without properly addressing the complaint. I don't think that anyone should say that they have a right to do that do you?

The case you are talking about may have nothing in common with renmures totally reasonable request to see his file and it is difficult to imagine a court of law supporting this refusal. On what grounds could they possibly do that? It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some companies will go to avoid their responsibility but that does not give them a right to do so.

Perhaps there are some 'legal' people out there to tell us about the legal basis for this if there is one?

dunstonh

So are you saying they have rights and we don't as the bottom line here then?

No. You are totally missing the point. I can ask you to strip naked and run up and down the street. Nothing stops me asking. However, you dont have to do it.

If you have made a complant and have asked for your file they do not have a right to refuse you.

Yes, they do have the right to refuse to give it to you. Not all will refuse but some will. Nothing stops you asking but they dont have to do it.

If the company or IFA or solicitor etc refuses to pass on the file once you have made a complaint and they refute your claim, they can be taken to the Ombudsman and he will insist on seeing it.

The firm can refuse to give it to the FOS but it wouldnt help their case.

This is an attempt by the company etc, to get rid of you and your claim without properly addressing the complaint. I don't think that anyone should say that they have a right to do that do you?

No-one is saying that. However, the company can refuse to give you the file so you can go fishing for areas to complain against them. As the Judge ruled (regarding the personal data)

"The Act does not give rise for an entitlement to original or copy documents."
"The Act is not an automatic key to any information of matters in whch [a data subject] may be named or involved"
"The Purpose of the Act is not to assist [a data subject] to obtain discovery or documents in litigation or complaints against third parties"

The case you are talking about may have nothing in common with renmures totally reasonable request to see his file and it is difficult to imagine a court of law supporting this refusal. On what grounds could they possibly do that? It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some companies will go to avoid their responsibility but that does not give them a right to do so.

Durrant vs FSA. Take a look on google.

Put a reality check on it though. You are talking a tiny minority here. Most documents on the client file are copies of what is given out. So, there is little point holding back. Also, when making a complaint, the person reviewing the complaint should deal with any other areas they identify as problems even if they were not mentioned in the complaint letter (DOTW mentioned that in a past post).

renmure

Well, I have requested a copy of the file relating to both endowments. My anger/frustration at the moment is that the Firm of solicitors have effectively said that since they have a 9-word note in their conveyancing file dated in 1990, which says 'meeting with client, discussed mortgage and life insurance options' then this, to them, apparently means I was properly advised in 1990 and 1992.

The daft thing is that I KNOW that in 1990 I went through a full financial 'fact-finding' type meeting with the Firms financial advisor... not the solicitor. I also know that I had a similar meeting in 1992 when I needed to increase my mortgage and was advised to take out a 2nd endowment. I can see this running and running for a while! :rolleyes:

Jim

mayb_2

Yes, they do have the right to refuse to give it to you.

What 'right' dunstonh? - if you are calling it a right I assume you are saying this is a right in law - what law is that? I am not being facetious here I really want to know by what 'right' they can refuse to allow you to defend a claim against a company by denying you access to this document.

"The Act does not give rise for an entitlement to original or copy documents."
"The Act is not an automatic key to any information of matters in whch [a data subject] may be named or involved"
"The Purpose of the Act is not to assist [a data subject] to obtain discovery or documents in litigation or complaints against third parties"

What Act is it that you are referring to dunstonh? The Data protection Act was the one referred to in the case of (durrant vs the FSA I checked that out on Google not exactly earth moving stuff) and this was an employment issue involving a bank. The FSA is governed by the Freedom of Information Act but is exempted from giving some information as it is part of the FSA's remit to protect the Financial Industries. This act deals with the rights of the public to information held by public authorities and is not relevant here.

The Freedom of information Act is nothing to do with this case, this does does not involve third parties and I don't see how the Data Protection Act can be invoked as a reason not to give this information either. So where is the similarity with Durant vs FSA?

I think renmure you should take this to the equivalent of the Ombudsman in Scotland and see what happens - you can't be any worse off than you are now if this solicitor wont play ball - but follow the Which guidelines when making your complaint and be sure to emphasise the fact that you were not advised about the risks involved or that your mortgage would not necessarily be paid. If they then exercise their 'right' not to supply the necesary documents it will not help their case but it might well help yours.