Unenforceable Credit Agreements

Walletwatch

bert&ernie wrote: »

So banks can lend money with scant regard for consumer protection law and, when found out, they shrug and give back the charges that they illegally levied? Whoops, you got me - here's your interest back, now about that money you owe me...

Ever considered that the risk of loosing the advanced capital might be an incentive for compliance?

B&E, you don't quite get it, do you...

The difference between availing credit in return for interest and renting a car with Hertz, is that in the former, you are paying for the use of the funds lent to you by the bank, and in the latter, you are paying the rental for the use of the car for the specified period. If the car breaks down due to a fundamental fault with it or if you are overcharged for the rental, you get the extra amount refunded, and possibly any damages that you have suffered due to the service lapse. You DO NOT however get to keep the car!!!

What you are suggesting is that in this case, Hertz or Avis should be at the mercy of the car renter and take on the risk of losing the car to him so as to ensure compliance... There are much more effective ways of ensuring compliance rather than encourage the consumer to avail of the product or service and then decide that he will not pay for it, but at the same time, keep the product, thank you very much...

PROLIANT

For the "deluded characters" and "greed brigade", take a look at this simple financial process;

1. Apply for Visa credit card
2. Read and sign credit agreement
3. Open envelope and sign back of Visa card
4. Ring up and activate Visa card
5. Politely decline sales pitch for insurance
6. Once PIN has arrived, open envelope and scratch off panel to see if you won a car, or reveal PIN.
7. Go for a pi55, wash hands, get dressed and leave home and head for high street ATM then change PIN to suite.
8. Go to shop and select new shoes or whatever
9. Go to till and pay with new Visa
10. Return home and put new shoes in cupboard for 4 weeks.
11. Credit card bill arrives, decide how you want to tackle this one, choose to pay in full or choose to pay minimum payment by the due date clearly printed on statement, if you are having trouble reading call Visa Card Company and ask for brail copy.
12. Pay bill by chosen method

Follow these simple steps and you cant go wrong, now that you have read this "simple" instruction try following it instead of "stealing" money from a bank whom "trusted" you with credit in the first place, you wouldn’t do this to a friend or family member would you...oh silly me of course you would, I forgot this is MSE.....derrrrrr.

NickX

PROLIANT wrote: »

instead of "stealing" money from a bank whom "trusted" you with credit in the first place, you wouldn’t do this to a friend or family member would you...oh silly me of course you would, I forgot this is MSE.....derrrrrr.

Proliant, we have been here before, it is not stealing, it is manipulating the law to your own benefit (just as speeding motorists do when they employ the services of a solicitor to get speeding prosecutions thrown out of court due to legal technicalities).

As for comparing the creditor to a friend or family member, this is a nonscensical argument because how many friends or family members will attempt to extract as much monetary gain from you as they can by using tricks such as increasing APR's to extortionate rates, moving payment due dates, getting you to spend on a Balance Transfer Card - this list is endless, and when you can't pay will the friend or family member sell you down the river to a blood-sucking Debt Collection Agency ?? :rolleyes:

Paul_Herring

PROLIANT wrote: »

Credit card bill arrives, decide how you want to tackle this one, choose to pay in full or choose to pay minimum payment by the due date clearly printed on statement, if you are having trouble reading call Visa Card Company and ask for brail copy.

But, but, but... you missed one out...

"See article in Daily Mail or a post on MSE that would enable you to 'legally, for a fee' default on the money you borrowed, on a technicality, without harming your credit record"

Ignoring the fact, of course, that you have an up-front fee to pay and a percentage of the money you owed originally, but that's alright, isn't it?

HTH

PROLIANT

NickX wrote: »

it is not stealing, it is manipulating the law to your own benefit (just as speeding motorists do when they employ the services of a solicitor to get speeding prosecutions thrown out of court due to legal technicalities).

Yes it seems the mentality of a speeding motorist and somebody taking evasive action against paying back what they owe has something in common....irresponsible, selfish and stupid.

NickX wrote: »

As for comparing the creditor to a friend or family member, this is a nonscensical argument because how many friends or family members will attempt to extract as much monetary gain from you as they can by using tricks such as increasing APR's to extortionate rates, moving payment due dates, getting you to spend on a Balance Transfer Card - this list is endless, and when you can't pay will the friend or family member sell you down the river to a blood-sucking Debt Collection Agency ?? :rolleyes:

Valid point, but mainstream cards come with an introductory rate, typically 0% so if you over-ride this and the card company yanks the interest up then...tough !!!!, mange your money better and plan, forecast better.

Paul_Herring

NickX wrote: »

Proliant, we have been here before, it is not stealing, it is manipulating the law to your own benefit (just as speeding motorists do when they employ the services of a solicitor to get speeding prosecutions thrown out of court due to legal technicalities).

It is both.

Both use legal loopholes to get out of money you should have paid anyway. They're both 'stealing.'

Not paying the principle is stealing from the credit firm (that's why my CC interest rates are so high!!) the second is stealing from whoever should be getting the fines for you breaking the law.

OK - the 2nd isn't technically stealing, since they didn't have the money in the first place, but still - you're depriving them of money they should have received from you.

NickX

PROLIANT wrote: »

Yes it seems the mentality of a speeding motorist and somebody taking evasive action against paying back what they owe has something in common....irresponsible, selfish and stupid.

Selfish yes I agree, but so are Card Providers and so are target obsessed Police forces out to get the speeding motorist rather than murderers and rapists.

Irresponsible and stupid no, nothing irresponsible or stupid about utilising your legal rights IMO.

bert&ernie

Paul_Herring wrote: »

More or less.



No - that's what the FSA is for. If you have problems with how they handle miscreants in the financial world, then that is a completely different matter.

Expecting to write off totally the principle of a loan because your lender was 'unfair,' or possibly gave you T&C's with an unenforceable clause, is wrong. (And greedy IMHO - no better than the lenders trying it on of course, but that doesn't make it right.)

And I believe the word you were looking for was 'losing.'

Thanks for the spell check.

Regulation is rarely as effective as a simple financial incentive. In this case, the customer is also incentivised to audit the lender - something the regulator rarely does with any conviction.

The terms and conditions are important because they set out the terms by which the principle sum will be repaid. If the lender is negligent with these, then it should not be surprised to find it difficult or imposable recover the principle.

You may assert that it is "wrong" and "greedy" to expect the loan to be written off, but how should it be repaid in the event that the terms of the agreement are unenforceable?

normanmark

bert&ernie wrote: »

So banks can lend money with scant regard for consumer protection law and, when found out, they shrug and give back the charges that they illegally levied? Whoops, you got me - here's your interest back, now about that money you owe me...

Ever considered that the risk of loosing the advanced capital might be an incentive for compliance?

Interest is not an illegal charge. You make it sound like customers are enforced to take out the credit agreement. Its clear in the terms & conditions what happens if you don't pay the full amount of the bill and on time. You make it sound like companies make these charges hidden.

Wake up & smell the coffee please.

NickX

PROLIANT wrote: »

but mainstream cards come with an introductory rate, typically 0% so if you over-ride this and the card company yanks the interest up then...tough !!!!, mange your money better and plan, forecast better.

From someone who I know has had difficulties in life and financial pressures in the past, I am shocked that you should say "tough !!! manage your money better".

You know as well as I do that its not that simple, events can take an unexpected turn for the worse and financial problems cannot always be avoided.