'Is it time to ditch the pound?' poll results/discussion

daiphoenix

rickbonar wrote: »

Brussels have nearly finished the dream of this great man otherwise known to you and I as: Adolf Hitler

Whoa, Godwin's Law in just the fourth thread, that's pretty fast (there was another smaller reference a few post back "only he sought to unify Europe with tanks! (And spoke German)", but it wasn't as direct as this one.
Congrats for the Troll of day Award! :T

daiphoenix

DJFearRoss wrote: »

amazing, the EU says it celebrates diversity and democracy, but all i see it doing is trying to make all countries the same and often without the common person even having a say. Strange how there is no EU rule to force a referendom on if we even want to be in the EU. What about our rights?

Whether we adopt the euro or not, it will not even be our choice....

The implication that the "common person" should have a significant say in this matters is rubbish! I am an educated person, I have an MSc. degree in the tech field, I try to keep up with politics and social issues. And still, I *do not have* anywhere near a good understanding of all the economic implications of having a single currency, versus keeping the pound. Yes, I know that being part of the Euro means you don't have total control of the national interest rate, but again, I don't know the know the *full* list of advantages and disadvantges, and how they stack up all togheter in the end.
This is not an issue like legalization of abortion/marijuana/prostitution/whatever, which are *social/moral* issues that everyone is capable of having a fair understanding of, and a subsequent moral and ethical opinion of. No, this issue of having a single currency or not, is a very complex economical matter, such that I'm satisfied to have the government and the financial experts be the main decision makers.

What I do know for sure, is that I want such decision to be based on what is best for the people economically wise, and certainly not on conservative, outdated, nationalistic values.
And what I also know, is that there seems to be a lot of Britons that care way too much about such values, and not about real benefit. That's quite a shame, given that so many people today are struggling to make their due, to pay their mortgages, support their family and kids, etc.. Is this how you support your country? Now, I'm not say that joining the euro is indeed economically better for the country, just that *if* it is, then that's the only thing that should really matter.
I also know that given the current economic crisis, it's very hard to justify keeping the pound based on purely nationalistic terms. So we see a lot of the so called "little britains" or europhobes, trying to campaign against the euro using shabby economical rethoric. Now, as I said before, I'm not a financial expert, so I can't fully debate such arguments, but by the way some articles are written (I've read quite a few lately about the euro, even old ones dating from the early 00s, before the crisis), and you can clearly see that there is some strong and unfair anti-euro bias on many. Very few seem to have a balanced opinion.

The one aspect that is mentioned more often is the loss of control over interest rates. Yes, that is definetely a disadvantage, but that doesn't mean it outweights the benefits. I mean, going into analogies here, a marriage & having a family also has plenty of cons (loss of personal freedom, can not see other people etc,) but that doesn't mean it's not worth it! (Yeah, I know there are divorces as well, but my point with the analogy is that a few cons don't make something not worthy of pursuing.)

teddyco wrote: »

Finally, Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

Interestingly enough, I quite agree!
Putting the average voter in charge of complex issues they have little or no understanding of (or even are misled about) can only lead to disastrous consequences. A very good and recent example is Ireland's referendum on the Lisbon treaty... :mad:

daiphoenix

For all those those that argue that joining the euro would lead to a rise in prices. Well, that is probably true, but that is just an initial cost due to the adaption. The prices may never go back to what they were, but eventually the economy adapts and stabilizes. When you quit smoking you also have a very hard time adapting, and suffer a lot in the beginning, but it doesn't mean it's not worth on the long run.

Skylight wrote: »

The French, Spanish, German, and Italian people would dearly like to return to their previous respective currencies, it was the World Bank that wanted parity for greater

Do you have any references to back that up? Or are you just pulling that comments out of thin air (I wanted to use another word here...)?

Peejbee wrote: »

Also most of the people in those countries that I have spoken to, want out of the Euro and have their old currency back!

Well for *all* the people I've spoken to (mostly Portuguese people, some Spaniards, and some Irish) none consider getting out of the a Euro a serious measure in any way whatsoever.
This all just shows that such anecdotal evidence is just plain crap. I would be very surprised if there were any significant portion of the population in favor of pulling out of the Euro in any of those countries. If you think not, then back it up with something. articles, polls, references, etc.?

neblett

MarkLS12 wrote: »

That's an often repeated urban myth.
German inflation was under 2% each year for the period from 1999 to 2006.

Hmmmm, I realise I am not the most intelligent person on this planet, but aren't urban myths supposed to be things that DON'T really happen???

This DID happen, I was there, I saw the wage slips and the bank statements!!! (please take note Mr Sage)

kwikbreaks

rickbonar wrote: »

I think Gordon Brown has deliberately let the value of the pound slide in order to ease the yes to the Euro vote.

I seriously doubt that Brown has any control at all over any aspect of the economy right now (if he ever did).

MikeH99

daiphoenix wrote: »

No, this issue of having a single currency or not, is a very complex economical matter, such that I'm satisfied to have the government and the financial experts be the main decision makers.

As the old joke goes, ask three economists to predict the future and you get four opinions.

While the economics of euro membership are of course important, and are themselves enough to show we should keep the pound, it's not only about that. There are democratic implications too, of handing control of major economic decisions to people who are not nearly as accountable to us day-to-day. Control which, if a crisis dictated at some time in our unknowable economic future, we would have great pragmatic difficulties getting back.

Although some try to equate the European Central Bank (ECB) with an independent Bank of England, in democratic terms the latter is far more accountable and subject to targets set by a government we elect - which can change if we elect a government of a different political colour.

Let's not beat about the bush. No elections in any national or European institution can influence the ECB. Euro membership is about handing significant political power away to people beyond any meaningful control and, in abolishing your currency, making it very hard to get back. That's why so many say that the euro is far more about politics - the EU politics of creating a European State - than about economics.

If power is to be transferred from our elected institutions to other structures, especially if such remote structures, that power belongs to everybody, so everybody should be involved directly in that decision. Not just so-called "experts" - and certainly not just politicians, who in most cases are just as 'inexpert' as the rest of us.

MikeH99

daiphoenix wrote: »

Posted by Skylight
The French, Spanish, German, and Italian people would dearly like to return to their previous respective currencies, it was the World Bank that wanted parity for greater

Do you have any references to back that up? Or are you just pulling that comments out of thin air (I wanted to use another word here...)?

The first is from 2005, but I would imagine that polls on the subject don't go around that often:

"The controversy over the alleged discussion about post-euro scenarios came as an opinion poll showed that 56% of Germans want the Deutschmark back."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4082610.stm

"Five years later, most Germans still long to have their old currency back, according to a recent poll by the market research firm Forsa. The poll, for Stern magazine and RTL television, showed that 58 percent of Germans would prefer the Deutsche mark over the euro. In a recent survey by TNS-Soffres in France, 52 percent of those polled said giving up the franc had been "quite bad" or "very bad" for France, compared with 45 percent in 2003. In Italy, a growing tide against the euro has culminated in some politicians calling for the country to back out of the single currency in a bid to restore the country's sagging economic competitiveness.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/28/business/euro.php

"A village in southern France has decided to bring back the franc as legal tender in an experiment that it hopes will be followed elsewhere."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4322470.ece

This from just a few minutes Googling. The sentiment is definitely out there.

Sage99

MikeH99 wrote: »

I hope this provides some of the explanations you were looking for ... just in case the original commenter doesn't get back to you!

Atb.

Thank you for your reply which is much appreciated, and was read with care and considerable interest.

At present on balance I still favour the Euro, but am open minded about it. My main consideration at present is the need for Europe to unite so that it can compete against the big power blocks, present and future. In order to unite it must have three things...

a common market
a common currency
a common language
All these things are in progress, but the UK is falling behind.

gb57

Eer - a common language - what exactly would that be, than??????????????????? FrAngGermPolSerb (?)

That sort of outlook puts me in mind of the song "Little Boxes" - are we all to be exactly the same in the future - wear the same sort of clothes, eat the same type of food, live in the same type of houses, speak the same language - how unutterably BORING.

Vive la difference! (and NO to the Euro). And please stop insulting those who disagree with your views by calling us Little Englanders and Xenophobics - it actually weakens your case considerably, as it emphasises the attitude of the self-serving politicians who want to bulldoze everyone into this "one European nation" thing, because THEY want it, and THEY are the only ones who are right, all those who oppose them being unworthy people.

brianw.mail

It’s sad to see the amount of emotive name-calling in this thread. Unfortunately it has always been the way of those who wish to undermine other people’s opinions and preferences to use such psychobabble to give themselves some perceived altitude. This is much in the order of kids who call names in the schoolyard.

I’m sorry, but wishing to have a strong and independent Britain (or indeed any other country) which cares for its own people and interests in the way it sees best does not make someone an insane “europhobe” or “xenophobe” or “Little Englander” any more than it would be wrong to wish to control freely the running of one’s own household.

It is, noting the comments of another contributor, the devious psychological approach of any would-be dictator or extremist group to give such a name to the alleged craziness of anyone who would disagree or oppose them and by repetition make it seem real because “everyone is saying it”. The very same technique made the Jews in Germany and the ethnic groups of Yugoslavia into lesser creatures who needed to be marginalised and then removed “for the national good”.

We have fought over centuries for the right of each individual, each family, to have their own lives free from unnecessary interference. The same should go for nations. When supranational government and “globalisation” take centre stage it is right to be alarmed at the potential for a Brave New World of over-control. This is proving out all along: European nations even now have less right to make laws which protect the unique rights of their own peoples than the states which make up the USA, And what is more, the laws and directives which pour out en masse are to a great extent created without our choice by unelected and unseen civil servants, with no democratic safeguards.

We all have the right to disagree. Unfortunately this is what is most at risk with the European project.

How much say do you have as a citizen of your town? Or of the UK as a whole? Now how much influence does each voter have over such an entity as the EU? And do we really want to control how the Italians or Ukrainians run their affairs even if we did have the power?

Finance is a tool for social control beyond any other. The enemy is not so-called “nationalism” (read correctly as “national pride and integrity” and not jingoism) but the unelected, unseen movers behind the scenes who manipulate finance for their own personal gain and in return contribute nothing of value. Nothing is more obvious right now than the fact that these people, who have placed themselves above governments and the law, created the present financial crisis (which they cutely named the “credit crunch” to make it more real and give it bite) and are the ones who gain. These are the people who win out from the Euro.

The Euro can very reasonably be understood to be a means of ultimate global control. He who controls the Euro controls Europe. Maybe one day the world, if the present campaign in the Americas for the “Amero” should come to fruition. And if anyone tries to call this a “conspiracy theory”, well that’s just another of those cute names for alleged insanity to add to the collection. It’s just saying “don’t look there and find out”. The answer to deep problems is often in the place no-one would think to look, and a place where “everyone knows” the answer couldn’t be.

Maybe something is afoot that we need to look into very carefully before we take the bait and it really does remove our hard-won human rights.