Gordon Brown: "not me Guv, I wouldn't change a thing"

1echidna

Personally I am happy to say that Gordon Brown was unlucky. But as sure as night follows day he is responsible for this crash just as with the captain of a Navy ship court marshall will follow as sure as night follows day if his ship runs onto the rocks however unlucky he may have been. I am not particularly a Conservative Party supporter incidently.

Rochdale_Pioneers

I would like those blaming Gordon Brown/Conservatives to answer the following questions:

1. The failings thrown at Gordon by Osborne are that he failed to regulate the markets, that he let house prices get out of control, that he didn't step in to curb the excesses of city policies. Wt which point - before this year's Tory party conference - did his party speak out on any of those subjects?

2. Had the Conservatives been in power these last 11 years what would have been done differently? Those of us with eyes have witnessed three extraordinary things - a. John Redwood proposing the total deregulation of the mortgate market at the height of what they now say was the period of worst excess (late 97)
b. A succession of expose's showing the Tory party to be heavily indebted to hedge fund managers and city financiers. The very same people they now sincerely say thet would have stopped doing what they did
c. Osborne defending the city saying that a tiny minority getting rich off the backs of everyone else was a function of the market.
So again you Conservatives - what would you have done differently? Specifically, with citations please.....

3. This flap about VAT. Its been dropped by 2.5% for a year at which point it may return to where it was, it may go up 1% to 18.5%. This is bad is it? Is it worse than Thatcher increasing VAT from 8% to 15% in the 1981 recession? How about Major increasing it from 15% to 17.5% in the 1991 recession? The policy you are all screaming about seemed writ large to suit you twice in the past. Are you being hypocritical or just ignorant of history?

1echidna

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

I would like those blaming Gordon Brown/Conservatives to answer the following questions:

1. The failings thrown at Gordon by Osborne are that he failed to regulate the markets, that he let house prices get out of control, that he didn't step in to curb the excesses of city policies. Wt which point - before this year's Tory party conference - did his party speak out on any of those subjects?

2. Had the Conservatives been in power these last 11 years what would have been done differently? Those of us with eyes have witnessed three extraordinary things - a. John Redwood proposing the total deregulation of the mortgate market at the height of what they now say was the period of worst excess (late 97)
b. A succession of expose's showing the Tory party to be heavily indebted to hedge fund managers and city financiers. The very same people they now sincerely say thet would have stopped doing what they did
c. Osborne defending the city saying that a tiny minority getting rich off the backs of everyone else was a function of the market.
So again you Conservatives - what would you have done differently? Specifically, with citations please.....

3. This flap about VAT. Its been dropped by 2.5% for a year at which point it may return to where it was, it may go up 1% to 18.5%. This is bad is it? Is it worse than Thatcher increasing VAT from 8% to 15% in the 1981 recession? How about Major increasing it from 15% to 17.5% in the 1991 recession? The policy you are all screaming about seemed writ large to suit you twice in the past. Are you being hypocritical or just ignorant of history?

We have yet to see how bad this crash is. It was Brown though who claimed the credit for a boom built on credit and an end to boom and bust. The bust happened on Brown's watch and is in part, at least, Brown's responsibility. To deny this is crass whether or not the Conservatives could have done better.

leveller2911

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

I would like those blaming Gordon Brown/Conservatives to answer the following questions:

1. The failings thrown at Gordon by Osborne are that he failed to regulate the markets, that he let house prices get out of control, that he didn't step in to curb the excesses of city policies. Wt which point - before this year's Tory party conference - did his party speak out on any of those subjects?

2. Had the Conservatives been in power these last 11 years what would have been done differently? Those of us with eyes have witnessed three extraordinary things - a. John Redwood proposing the total deregulation of the mortgate market at the height of what they now say was the period of worst excess (late 97)
b. A succession of expose's showing the Tory party to be heavily indebted to hedge fund managers and city financiers. The very same people they now sincerely say thet would have stopped doing what they did
c. Osborne defending the city saying that a tiny minority getting rich off the backs of everyone else was a function of the market.
So again you Conservatives - what would you have done differently? Specifically, with citations please.....

3. This flap about VAT. Its been dropped by 2.5% for a year at which point it may return to where it was, it may go up 1% to 18.5%. This is bad is it? Is it worse than Thatcher increasing VAT from 8% to 15% in the 1981 recession? How about Major increasing it from 15% to 17.5% in the 1991 recession? The policy you are all screaming about seemed writ large to suit you twice in the past. Are you being hypocritical or just ignorant of history?

My Grandfather was on the Jarrow march during the 30,s, he was staunch Labour, My father was also staunch Labour, I have never had political views forced down my throat,so I can have an unbiased view.......

THATCHER: POLL TAX (IN THEORY WAS A GOOD IDEA, JUST POOR EXECUTION,GAVE COUNCIL TENANTS THE RIGHT TO BUY.(good and bad idea). NHS.....(I dont think the NHS will ever work, the term "MONEY PIT" springs to mind...

PRESENT LABOUR GOVERNMENT : NHS (Is better, but not sure its value for money,schools infrastructre a lot better,education worse.Economy mismanaged and In a terrible state....

Sorry but I cant take anyone seriously who just rants on about the "last tory government".We could spend all night like this, what about the Labour government of the 70,s............

:rolleyes: And we spend all night going back through history Blaming previous governments........:rolleyes:

StevieJ

leveller2911 wrote: »

My Grandfather was on the Jarrow march during the 30,s, he was staunch Labour, My father was also staunch Labour, I have never had political views forced down my throat,so I can have an unbiased view.......

THATCHER: POLL TAX (IN THEORY WAS A GOOD IDEA, JUST POOR EXECUTION,GAVE COUNCIL TENANTS THE RIGHT TO BUY.(good and bad idea). NHS.....(I dont think the NHS will ever work, the term "MONEY PIT" springs to mind...

PRESENT LABOUR GOVERNMENT : NHS (Is better, but not sure its value for money,schools infrastructre a lot better,education worse.Economy mismanaged and In a terrible state....

Sorry but I cant take anyone seriously who just rants on about the "last tory government".We could spend all night like this, what about the Labour government of the 70,s............

:rolleyes: And we spend all night going back through history Blaming previous governments...... ..:rolleyes:

Stange comment from someone whose user name harks back to the days of Oliver Cromwell

Masomnia

leveller2911 wrote: »

:rolleyes: And we spend all night going back through history Blaming previous governments........:rolleyes:

Damn right. I'm still p1ssed at Lord North for losing us the colonies :mad:

paulherts

This is beyond party political bickering.

It is worrying that there is a rush to perpetuate the causes of the current problems rather than try and find lasting solutions to stop them happening again.

Yes that would be painful but in the medium and long term it would make for a better economy and country.

leveller2911

John Lilburne: Leader of the Levellers : Now there was a man who had the "strength of his convitctions"......fought for what he believed in, piloried at Temple Bar and exiled to France for years.

But he never gave in and carried the fight for the "rights of the common man"

GOD BLESS HIM !!

GOD BLES THEM ALL !!

nickmason

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

I would like those blaming Gordon Brown/Conservatives to answer the following questions:

1. The failings thrown at Gordon by Osborne are that he failed to regulate the markets, that he let house prices get out of control, that he didn't step in to curb the excesses of city policies. Wt which point - before this year's Tory party conference - did his party speak out on any of those subjects?

2. Had the Conservatives been in power these last 11 years what would have been done differently? Those of us with eyes have witnessed three extraordinary things - a. John Redwood proposing the total deregulation of the mortgate market at the height of what they now say was the period of worst excess (late 97)
b. A succession of expose's showing the Tory party to be heavily indebted to hedge fund managers and city financiers. The very same people they now sincerely say thet would have stopped doing what they did
c. Osborne defending the city saying that a tiny minority getting rich off the backs of everyone else was a function of the market.
So again you Conservatives - what would you have done differently? Specifically, with citations please.....

3. This flap about VAT. Its been dropped by 2.5% for a year at which point it may return to where it was, it may go up 1% to 18.5%. This is bad is it? Is it worse than Thatcher increasing VAT from 8% to 15% in the 1981 recession? How about Major increasing it from 15% to 17.5% in the 1991 recession? The policy you are all screaming about seemed writ large to suit you twice in the past. Are you being hypocritical or just ignorant of history?

I'm going to rise to the bait, and then disappoint you immediately. The area of competition in politics should not be over specific policies but over philosophy.
This is a controversial suggestion - the government of the day will always want to talk about policies, because it has vastly greater resources working for it to determine policies (I am amazed, given this fact, how many tory ideas are actually adopted by the labour government - it makes you think what the civil servants are doing). "Left wing" governments are even more interested in debating the minutiae of policies, because the keynesian legacy suggests that it is fine to employ people to do so. And the definition of philosophy is also often weak - both Thatcher initially (in fact the tories historically) and Blair afterwards have adopted (or at least professed to adopt, which is the same thing in this smpace) the "what works" philosophy, which is a flagrant attempt to occupy the policy centre ground. Blair is justified in thinking that his third way was as good for the goose as for the gander.

But I nevertheless hold the proposition to be true. Because it (that proposition that it is philosophy not policies that matter) is necessary for democracy to flourish without the state "knowing best", whereupon we fall victim to the accusation that all parties are the same, and so we lose people's involvement in the democratic process.

What, to me at any rate, is becoming the overwhelming philosophy of Labour is that if we can find a silver lining to bad news, we can spin the good news from us vs the bad news from the opposition and no-one will know the difference. This has always been present - Brown's infamous "rabbits" in his budgets - but it's not very respectful of democracy.

neverdespairgirl

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

I would like those blaming Gordon Brown/Conservatives to answer the following questions:

The thing party political types miss is that I'm not that interested in what people did when I was a baby, nor in what people might have done (but didn't, because they weren't in government). I'm interested in what Crash Gordon's actually donw, and I don't like it.