Crittall Windows Ltd - getting delisted, is it possible?

chudies

cattie wrote:

Oh, you don't live at Spa Green do you?

nope, london
but the problem is more common that one thinks

chudies

NigeWick wrote:

I worked with Everest for a while and they do have experience of working with English Heritage and Councils. You could contact them and ask for one of their free quotes and when the sales person arrives, point out the challenges straight away. Giving them a question to answer may just get them out of the "you must buy today to get the deal" mentality too. The initial outlay will be amongst the highest, but, you do get the best backup long term. I found this out when I bought self cleaning windows and the fitters had to come back to our kitchen eight times because the coating appears to be a bit delicate. The bottom line is, they kept coming back until we were satisfied with it.

Nigel.

thanks nigel
unfortunately english heritage wont accept everset, and we are kinda stuck between a pillar and post!

Debt_Free_Chick

I don't understand ...... did you want to replace your windows anyway? Or have English Heritage told you that you must replace the existing windows?

Any changes you want to make almost certainly need the approval of the Listed Building Officer at the local planning department.

If this is not your decision, I can't see how English Heritage can force it on.

Can you clarify, please?

lush_walrus

chudies wrote:

thanks nigel
unfortunately english heritage wont accept everset, and we are kinda stuck between a pillar and post!

Im assuming two things:

1. You are planning to replace your windows and have applied for listed building consent?

2. English Heritage are involved because they are providing you with a grant? Otherwise they would not have any involvement with anything and the whole process would be managed between the planners and the conservation officers!

There are lots of companies out there that do a very simular product to Critall, which is acceptable for conservation work. All the conservation officers are concerned are that the profiles are acceptable and that they are an authentic match, not that they are purchased from a specific company. If however, English Heritage are providing you with a grant for the works, then they may well have nominated a company.

One company we often use for conservation work is http://www.clementwg.co.uk/windows/w20.asp but there are plenty of others who specialise in steel frame windows. If you look at W20 or W40 on the link they are to the same profiles as you probably require.

These are another company who are acceptable by most conservation officers. http://www.crittall-windows.co.uk/

Also which type of listing are you? Grade 1 or Grade 2 or are you locally listed? It is not possible to change the status back from listed to non listed by any form of request. The fact ytour property is listed (be it by suggestion) then it has been deemed to be worthy of conservation, and of a period or character which is of national (if grade 1 or 11 listed) or local (if grade 3 or above) interest. These things do not reverse.

chudies

Debt_Free_Chick wrote:

I don't understand ...... did you want to replace your windows anyway? Or have English Heritage told you that you must replace the existing windows?

Any changes you want to make almost certainly need the approval of the Listed Building Officer at the local planning department.

If this is not your decision, I can't see how English Heritage can force it on.

Can you clarify, please?

replacing the windows is our decision, because basically they some are in dire need of replacement
we figured that it would be cheaper to replace all at the same time
there is an option to just repair them, but that doesnt end the problem
in the long term, it would be best to just replace

as for english heritage....
basically we became listed under a conservation order, thanks to a local resident
and it is the coucil's officers who are insisting we go down the "crittal" like windows, and we havent found other suppliers
though i see comments from another MSE below, so will find out

thanks for your interest, its nice to know people are there offering help

chudies

lush_walrus wrote:

Im assuming two things:

1. You are planning to replace your windows and have applied for listed building consent?

Yep

lush_walrus wrote:

2. English Heritage are involved because they are providing you with a grant? Otherwise they would not have any involvement with anything and the whole process would be managed between the planners and the conservation officers!

They are providing no grant, but they are involved via the local council. I need to clarify this.

lush_walrus wrote:

There are lots of companies out there that do a very simular product to Critall, which is acceptable for conservation work. All the conservation officers are concerned are that the profiles are acceptable and that they are an authentic match, not that they are purchased from a specific company. If however, English Heritage are providing you with a grant for the works, then they may well have nominated a company.

No grant from EH, but we keep being directed to Crittal

lush_walrus wrote:

One company we often use for conservation work is http://www.clementwg.co.uk/windows/w20.asp but there are plenty of others who specialise in steel frame windows. If you look at W20 or W40 on the link they are to the same profiles as you probably require.

Thank you for this. Will investigate further.

lush_walrus wrote:

These are another company who are acceptable by most conservation officers. http://www.crittall-windows.co.uk/

I think is the Crittal that we are using

lush_walrus wrote:

Also which type of listing are you? Grade 1 or Grade 2 or are you locally listed? It is not possible to change the status back from listed to non listed by any form of request. The fact ytour property is listed (be it by suggestion) then it has been deemed to be worthy of conservation, and of a period or character which is of national (if grade 1 or 11 listed) or local (if grade 3 or above) interest. These things do not reverse.

Again, need to clarify
But I think we must be “locally” listed. Sorry I don’t know the difference.

You seem like you are in the trade, Is there a website detailing the differences in listing?

Thanks for the comment, plus the name of the company. All very interesting.

Debt_Free_Chick

Thanks for this - I understand now.

In 2004 (I think) control of listed buildings was passed to English Heritage. They are now responsible for maintaining the lists. You'll find more information here

I'm not sure why the local planning authority have involved EH in the work you are plannning to do .... that would normally be handled by the Listed Building officer at the authority. Usually, only "very important" cases get referred to EH. Perhaps your local authority has no Listed building officer or perhaps, as it's a recent listing, that the officer is "nervous" about approving any work without input from EH. Difficult to know.

Also put listed buildings into Google - this site looks useful.

Sorry not to have been more helpful

lush_walrus

Hi, Sorry I havent headed back over here. Im an architect and worked on quite a few listed buildings.

Just incase you havent got the listing details yet, the easiest way to get them is to call the planners, they sometimes can be useful and fax over the listing for you, but if not can definately let you know.

I think you may be able to extract some more help from the conservation officers on what will be acceptable, explain to them that you wish to go to your own suplier, rather than their recommendation, and that you will submit the profiles to them for approval. That should satisfy them. Also see if they have a profile drawing or can direct you to somewhere you may be able to find the specific one they wish you to match, then search google (just put in something like traditional steel frame windows or critall and it should come up with a list) and email each company with the detail and ask them if they do a simular profile. OR alternatively, get a detailed photo of your existing windows (if they are original), from the front, try to get the frame size so a picture looking at the side and internally and try sending that to a few manufacturers and ask them if they can match the existing profile. Some will be able to come out and inspect, others may not but it should open up a few options for suppliers. Let me know how you get on, its not as scary as it seems, but I know what its like when you are faced with completly new things!

Old_No.7

Hi there, just been over my notes on our Crittall windows and most of it isn't relevant to your situation (we wanted to keep the windows as original as possible as they give the flat it's character, do anything to not have to install PVC), but if you're going the replacement route this one is worth checking out.
==========================
Replacement – Crittall alternative
http://www.harmonydirect.co.uk/crittal_windows.html

Crittall Alternative - Composite

Finding a modern replacement for your original Crittall windows has been always been difficult.

Do you replace "like for like" and miss out on some of the benefits of modern replacement windows; such as thermally efficient low u value sealed unit, double glazing, higher security, draught proofing, no painting or maintenance; and preserve the original look?

Or do you install a modern uPVC window and sacrifice the original look? There is an alternative.

The double award winning Harmony Composite system.

Featuring strong, high security slim-line aluminium sections externally, bonded to thermally efficient PVCu internally, this system offers the best of both worlds, providing a product which gives you all of the benefits of modern double glazing whilst preserving the traditional look of your home.
===============================

Good luck with it all, your house must be beautiful for someone to nominate it, it's a very nice complement, and can't hurt for the value of the house either, I'm sure.

MartinPM

if you need to go down the Crittall window route, the following specification might be appropriate:

go for the W20 windows specifically designed for double glazing, and specifically with no aluminium extrusions
go for the syntha pulvin polyester coating on HOT DIPPED GALVANISED frame
do not use a PVF2 coating

if condensation is a significant problem, specify trickle vents

There are plenty of companies who repair and restore Crittall type windows - see the Crittall website for details

other metal window manufacturers are Monk Metal Windows and Metal Casements (Walsall)

Crittall windows are less thermally efficient than other modern double glazed windows but the cost in terms of energy useage is marginal. The newer Crittall windows are designed to minimise the old problems of condensation caused by cold bridging in the metal frames (no thermal breaks between outside and inside). If you have old Crittall frames, and single glazed, the new double glazed ones will outperform them and will be far superior.

as for the planning issues - English Heritage are a non-statutory body as opposed to a statutory body (such as your local planning and conservation departments at the council). EH consult with the conservation officer, and depending on their personalities and age/experience, EH may hold more or less influence than the planning/conservation officer. EH advise. The Council enforce / decide.

As a crude general rule, a Grade I listed building means that both the exterior and interior is subject to protection and preservation. Grade II listed properties are subject to protection and preservation of the exterior.

It is quite reasonable for EH / conservation officer to request that the windows match the existing style of window, especially if you own an apartment within a larger block, if your property is listed. Your neighbours could be putting up fake stone plastic cladding and PVC windows otherwise.

I personally would use (and have used) Crittall windows, as they offer good performance and offer a very attractive benefit in terms of the low maintenance and their longevity, aside of their visual elegance.

good luck