I have un-enforceable loan - but company say they will default me, if I stop paying?

Ichimoku

live-life-debt-free wrote: »

A couple of quotes from the High Court and Court of appeal regarding unexecuted agreements

Thanks for posting this. However, those objecting to this aren't concerned with what the law says, they are only speaking from a moral stand point. Interestingly, no-one has taken up the debate about the legal aspects of it, despite my efforts to engage them.

LilacPixie

Very very interesting thread.

My stand point is more 'on the fence' than to either side. IMO if a bank cannot produce proper paperwork as the legislation requires then :rolleyes: really it is their own look out.

I do feel that if you borrowed the money it should be paid back however no agreement means no proof of what the APR or loan term was. borrow 5k you pay back 5k not 5k plus interest and charges etc. The bank lost the 'right' to apply these things when it 'misfiled' the paperwork.

Ichimoku

LilacPixie wrote: »

Very very interesting thread.

My stand point is more 'on the fence' than to either side. IMO if a bank cannot produce proper paperwork as the legislation requires then :rolleyes: really it is their own look out.

I do feel that if you borrowed the money it should be paid back however no agreement means no proof of what the APR or loan term was. borrow 5k you pay back 5k not 5k plus interest and charges etc. The bank lost the 'right' to apply these things when it 'misfiled' the paperwork.

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. If a claim was made after, say, 2 years, how can anyone prove how much capital has already been paid off the balance, as opposed to interest if the interest rate is unprovable?

willo65

The technicallity was if the paperwork was filed and couldn't be found, I did demonstrate roughly how many CCA's one bank may hold just for loan agreements so for them to be unable to find 1/2 shouldn't enable said 1/2 people to not pay on this basis.

Surely if you take out any type of agreement then you keep a copy of the agreement yourself?

Ichimoku

willo65 wrote: »

The technicallity was if the paperwork was filed and couldn't be found, I did demonstrate roughly how many CCA's one bank may hold just for loan agreements so for them to be unable to find 1/2 shouldn't enable said 1/2 people to not pay on this basis.

Surely if you take out any type of agreement then you keep a copy of the agreement yourself?

There is no legal requirement for borrowers to keep copies of agreements, there is a legal requirement for lenders to do so. To expect every borrower to file their agreements safely is being optimistic at best. If borrowers (not unreasonably) expect their lender to keep the correct paperwork, why would they be so diligent in keeping their own copies?

What surprises me is that you keep trying to put the onus onto the borrower here, when the law, quite correctly and sensibly, says it is the lender's responsibility to retain the proper documentation. Why are you so intent on defending the lenders when it is they who have broken the law?

maz1964

well hello everyone

the more i read, the more i learn, about people, about morals and more important about the LAW......

for once i can see a bit of passion back in this country of ours, people are ready to stand up from the ground and learn that it is no longer nice to live and hope to get treated correctly by banks and lenders.

If my agreement is sound and correctly executed and i can actually read what they sent cos its so black i can then understand that they have sold me a correct and legal product and those terms are correct and legal.

otherwise, when i realise they are hiding behind a letter of words trying to make the letter sound so important and authentic in its use of legal jargon to confuse and even entertain me then i smell a rat.

I will challenge them on what they have sent me..

oh and now im going direct to the top people - and that is what we have to do now, go to the CEO office and top Company Secretary or the BOSS man or LADY

wake up people - learn as much as you can about YOur Rights, its refreshing to then learn about what creditors can and cannot do, what rubbish they spout in their letters, or lack of care and attention in even fobbing me off, i will challenge them to the max and am happily awaiting on replies

im totting up the payments made against the charges/interest applied and then the difference is what i really have borrowed because they Do not have the correct paperwork and that is unlawful and morals do not have any impact on this,, perhaps step back those who wont agree with me and just say to yourselves, "thank the lord there before god go i""

I really hope you dont get to a position you might lose your home to repossession, i nearly did last year and no help from the government, only court may have helped but i got back on my feet with my family and with an offer to clear the arrears paid back and now this year back to normal payments,

Why did i get into this mess that then spun out of control>? Cos i was off ill for a year and thus my pay went to 75.00 a week which then impacts on your living and household costs immediately

I really hope No one ever gets to that point, its scary and now remembering how i was treated by my unsecured creditors still sends a shiver down my spine, at christmas i was told by lovely american cc to just pay and sell all the christmas presents id bought,,,i hadnt even bought any xmas presents!!

Lo and behold, that one comment has stayed with me and so glad the cca is my next challenge as its unenforceable that it cant even be read!!
i will take it to court even if i have to start proceedings and i will be putting that discussion into my case notes.

Keep positve and those who disagree with me, thats fine, my experience is mine alone and nothing you say will ever change it or even make it worse

Keep smiling :beer: maz

willo65

Ichimoku wrote: »

There is no legal requirement for borrowers to keep copies of agreements, there is a legal requirement for lenders to do so. To expect every borrower to file their agreements safely is being optimistic at best. If borrowers (not unreasonably) expect their lender to keep the correct paperwork, why would they be so diligent in keeping their own copies?

What surprises me is that you keep trying to put the onus onto the borrower here, when the law, quite correctly and sensibly, says it is the lender's responsibility to retain the proper documentation. Why are you so intent on defending the lenders when it is they who have broken the law?

I'm not trying to put the onus on the borrower in respect of any legal issues. what I am saying is from a moral standpoint if you borrowed the money then you know you borrowed it and were happy with the terms when you started the loan and should be happy to pay it. You will know full well how many months you took the loan over and can tell what the repayments are by looking at the payments you are making. Why would you ask for a copy of your CCA if you aren't just trying your luck that the bank will not have it and you can refuse to pay? Fair enough if suddenly your payments change or it is going on for longer than the term you expected.

It strikes me as odd that you didn't keep a copy but all of a sudden you are interested in having a copy because......(You are trying to get out of paying back what you borrowed??)

lclclclc

I requested a copy of my CCA, as I was claiming that I was mis-sold PPI, which I was, and the bank whom I have the loan with, have upheld my complaint, and have sent me a couple of offer letters.

I simply wanted to check how my monthly payment was split, between pure payment, and payment protection, so that I could have an idea of the amount I should claim for...Only once I was made aware that they didn't have a copy of the document, I began to research about how I could complain to the FOS or TS about their lack of regard for customers data protection.. I think we've all seen the stories about branches leaving customers details in bin bags or something like that, outside their branches. I was advised by the different agencies that I have been in contact with, that I am perfectly within my rights to challenge the agreement, and that is what I am doing.. I may use the FACT that they are unable to provide me a copy of an agreement, which is a legal requirement, and they are in contravention of money laundering regulations ( ie keeping data for 5 years ) and various other acts, subsections, paragraphs.. to leverage myself to make a full and final offer, which should I decide, could be the differential between what I took out the loan for, what I've paid so far, and amount outstanding.. which if you took away interest etc, would be 4k ish.. I can do this.. because LEGALLY, I am in the right here.. the BANK is in the WRONG.

The bank would then be paid in full for the amount I borrowed, but they would suffer from me not paying INTEREST or PPI over the coming years, and it would be THEIR fault, for not being able to provide me with a document that I am legally entitled to.

LEGALLY, I don't need to pay them anything any more, but morally, yes I probably may pay them, and because of some extenuating circumstances for me, it would make sense for me. I am all up for a bit of debate on this forum, its healthy, and an interesting subject, that seems to stimulate some passionate views, but when it starts to get personal, its not a forum anymore, more of a circus..

willo65

ok. I now understand where you are coming from but the way the thread was set out it did look like you were just trying to get out of paying because you could.

Ichimoku

willo65 wrote: »

I'm not trying to put the onus on the borrower in respect of any legal issues. what I am saying is from a moral standpoint if you borrowed the money then you know you borrowed it and were happy with the terms when you started the loan and should be happy to pay it. You will know full well how many months you took the loan over and can tell what the repayments are by looking at the payments you are making. Why would you ask for a copy of your CCA if you aren't just trying your luck that the bank will not have it and you can refuse to pay? Fair enough if suddenly your payments change or it is going on for longer than the term you expected.

It strikes me as odd that you didn't keep a copy but all of a sudden you are interested in having a copy because......(You are trying to get out of paying back what you borrowed??)

The problem is that many CCA regulated loan agreements had extremely inaccurate figures on them because lenders didn't train their staff to complete them properly. So, in many cases borrowers didn't know exactly what they were getting. They may have been happy with the terms on the agreement, but the terms were wrong.

The law, quite rightly IMO, is designed to protect the borrower in such cases, and the penalty for lenders who fail to ensure they have given accurate key information at the appropriate time is severe i.e. unenforceability of the loan. The lenders knew the penalties but still neglected to ensure the key document in the loan agreement (the contract if you like) was accurate. Personally, I have no sympathy with them.

I have first hand evidence that banks have not acted in a moral way for years, so why should we be so careful to treat them in a morally acceptable way? (My other half has just calculated her bank charges for the last 6 years, it's over £5.5K! They've also mis-sold her PPI on at least 3 occasions, and they've mis-sold several loans to her. I'll be happy for her to take them for every penny she can get as they've caused her untold stress and misery for many years.)

Finally, I think there's a world of difference between Willo and some of the other posters. I respect your opinion that you think it's immoral to avoid these debts, and I can see where you're coming from. I'm glad that you can debate this point in such a way that you make it clear it's just your opinion, and you haven't gone down the route of sitting in judgment in the way others on this thread have - so thanks for that!