variance and how to investigate...

Soubrette

As I mentioned on another thread, I have had a phone call from my case worker to say that in her opinion my variation will fail. I have no direct evidence that the ex receives dividends, this is true but I have plenty of indirect evidence such as daily rates for his skills, the fact the company is VAT registered yet has no money or assets in it at the end of his tax years etc etc

The reason for failure for lifestyle inconsistency is even more puzzling - first she said that his income could be supplemented by his girlfriend and therefore they were not going to proceed on that basis, I agreed that he could lie about an income stream (heck he could say he'd won the lottery) but I wanted the question put to him (as it does say quite clearly that lying to them is a criminal offence). I asked her if, in her opinion, he could possibly be maintaining his lifestyle on a minimum wage take home - to which she replied (and I quote) it is not my position to make that decision.

I also warned her that if ex is asked if he took £40000 in dividends last year and actually took £60000 or even £39999 then he would just say 'no' in the warm belief that he was telling the exact truth - he would find it much more difficult if the question was just "Do you take extra income as dividends" followed by "how much" She actually chuckled and said that he would probably agree to the first situation so he'd save money - I have two years to build a uni fund for my eldest and so do not find that particularly funny :mad:

I told her I wanted to appeal and she said I would have to wait until I had the official letter, I would then be able to ask for another case worker to look at my file and if I still disagreed with the decision it could then go to tribunal.

I did some surfing and came up with an old posts of kelloggs which says that variations are automatically turned down - and that does seem to be the case :rolleyes:

I shall be asking my MP (if it gets that far) what is the point of a variation due to lifestyle consistency if cmec are then unable to make a decision on it? And if that is the case why bother with that step at all? Why not have all lifestyle inconsistent variations go straight to an oral tribunal?

She promised she would look at my case again before sending out the letter mid week but what from she has said my variation has failed and we move on to the next stage. I'm actually gearing up for an oral tribunal which I hope he has to face me and answer some difficult questions.

Ex is talking about taking girls to Cypress, I'm sure he enjoyed his ballet last week and he's just put his (originally cost) £320 lightshades on ebay. :rolleyes: In return he has seen the girls 3 nights this month (he has unlimited access, limited only by how much the girls want to see him).

For the future, I particular want the question regarding dividends put to him partly because it does mean that he will be deliberately lying but partly because it seems in two years time that cmec will be able to verify income by looking at tax returns - if he has lied at this time then I'm hoping that he will have a very large back payment to pay at that time due to not disclosing a material fact.

Sou

frugallass

my ex is SE, he refused to comply with CSA and therefore his 'accounts' were obtained from HMRC

show me a self-employed, highly skilled, highly experienced builder who brings home £201 a week and manages to pay a mortgage, run a car, keep his dog, girlfriend and her kids fed and watered and still manage to go abroad a couple of times a year, continue to drink in the pub every night and play golf on £175 a week (I get £26 of the £201) and I'll show you a purple and blue spotted pig singing 'fly me to the moon' sailing past my kitchen window

I had the same blurb about the girlfriend and that the mortgage and car might be in her name etc

The CSA aren't interested

At the end of the day, I know I have done everything I can to give my daughter what she needs and I hope he can live with the guilt because she is old enough (and clever enough) to know what a liar he is.

kelloggs36

Yes that is very likely - but you will need to ensure that you keep bringing it up in writing so that they can not say that you didn't ask!!!

You need to gather all the evidence and list it. List what income he would need in order to sustain his lifestyle - all the holidays, day to day living (of course it can't be 100% accurate but it is a start). Leave nothing out - petrol costs, gas, electricity, mortgage repayments, food, clothes etc. Does he smoke? Put that down too.

Soubrette

frugallass - I get £30 a week for both of mine - just bought shoes which cost £36 and a coat at £15 then about £60 'spending money' for a school trip Even yet - his contribution is about twice what it was when it was just left up to him.

He sent a smug little email explaining how he would no longer be a bottomless pit of money (yeah the £500 quid he spent on school uniform and the big trip will be really missed :rolleyes: ) as he would let the CSA decide what he was legally obliged to pay - no doubt he had been on to his accountant and been told dividends don't count. He also told me that I would now be liable for all child care costs for the kids (see above for his contribution) - and this is the morally reprehensible bit - if he had even said that he would be prepared to put money by for them and it was a reasonable proportion of his income then I would let it ride at that but no, nothing extra for them at all unless it directly related to his own expenses.

kelloggs - I am now keeping all evidence of his lifestyle - even a print out of his ebaying activities and I hate and detest every minute of it:mad: I want nothing to do with the man except as the father of our children, the last thing I want to know is about is what he is up to unless it is directly related to the children. I take on board what you say about in writing - when I get my letter next week I shall reiterated my points, make some a bit clearer (service ltd companies do not have big overheads etc) and point out that he should be given the chance to prevent possible backlogs occurring by being asked some simple questions.

I do not restrict any access on behalf of the girls and they are can ring their dad any time they want to (they aren't allowed to ring me when they are with him) but I have a lot more sympathy for parents that do in these situations, even though I still think they are wrong but is also seems so wrong that he plays the role of the 'good' dad and is actually such a selfish one. Just to make it clear - he has seen his children 3 times this month because he has chosen that.

Looking on the bright side - at least he does have some relationship with his girls which is more than some children have.

Sou

frugallass

Soubrette wrote: »

frugallass - I get £30 a week for both of mine - just bought shoes which cost £36 and a coat at £15 then about £60 'spending money' for a school trip Even yet - his contribution is about twice what it was when it was just left up to him.

then I consider myself a little luckier than you

(and I've just forked out £130+ for glasses for my daughter)

Soubrette

After much umming and ahhing my case worker agreed to phone the ex and find out his explanation for his lifestyle on such a low take home.

The ex said it was savings and his girlfriend and so my variance has failed and she will be puting this in writing.

So why am I so pleased :j

Although we will be going through the appeals process and gather evidence as we go along, I believe that this means he is on record as saying that his lifestyle this year has been funded by girlfriend, savings and low take-home. I believe this now leaves the door open for a reassessment in 2 years time when child support is based on tax returns and gross pay.

Further I believe it leaves the door open to a ressessment which dates back to the date of the initial assessment as he has failed to disclose a material fact.

This gives another bite at the cherry if the oral tribunal fails.

Sou

Soubrette

OK I have now had my letter refusing to amend the maintenance calculations.

It would seem I have two choices - the one pushed the most is to have another caseworker look at my file or to ask for an oral tribunal.

I would like to do the latter as it seems a waste of time asking for a relook. Is this a good idea bearing in mind that I am skipping one of the CSA recommended steps of appeal?

I have no new evidence for the trial but I intend to try and get evidence of dividends being paid whilst we were together and also to pay for a letter from his accountant confirming that if I were a limited company then the most tax efficient way to extract money would be via low salary and income - if they refuse to comply then I shall ask another accountancy firm to confirm this as the most tax efficient and common way for a ltd company to work.

I also intend to write to the ex as the director of the company that employed me and ask for all information held on me to be disclosed under the data protection act. I'm interested in what will be thrown up by this.

I seem to remember reading that I can request an accountant to be present at the tribunal, does anyone know if I can also request that he shows his tax return for this year (or preferably the last 3 years) or the profit and loss statements that he has to complete for the inland revenue? Or is it up to the tribunal as to what evidence is asked for?

Also where are these tribunals held - locally or London or somewhere else?

Thanks

Sou

kelloggs36

Well a tribunal will cost you nothing and you may get the chairman to request the NRP to provide EVIDENCE of his savings that he states he lives on, and evidence that his girlfriend pays for everything. At that hearing you can also ask for dividend income to be investigated.

koolmummy

I was in the same situation as OP. My ex was earning over £100k per annum, LTD company director, P.A.Y.E less that £100 per week. assessment £5 per week. Tax returns showed his earnings to be very low.

I was able to show lots of evidence to his income as were divorcing at the time so I had paperwork. CSA then did criminal compliance investigations and reassessed him on income into personal bank accounts - new assessment around £900 per month. Criminal compliace team looked into all of his bank accounts, they had statements going back years, this seems to be what you need the CSA to do.

The assessment was backdated to when they sent the MAF. £24,000 arrears as a long time had passed. My ex appealed, lost at the tribunal although he did not show up it stalled everything for another 6 months. He now owes £35,000, CSA have liability order for £24K.

5 years on, they assure me commital proceedings will be soon but I'm not holding my breath. Payments to date - nil:mad:

Soubrette

koolmummy, I am amazed, why has your ex not been prosecuted as a tax evader?

I do believe my situation is much more hopeful than yours - the ex does pay £30 a week for 2 children and I do believe he stays on the tax avoidance side of the law, for example he is the sole shareholder in his ltd whereas lots of his colleagues who don't have partners use their parents to try and maximise their take from their ltd companies. This is, of course, fraud but as I said, my ex does not do this.

I suspect his next move will be to try and keep money in the company but I believe that comes under deliberate deprivation of assets but we'll wait and see.

I do hope you don't give up though and well done for seeing it through this far.

Sou