CCA...help please??

Kathy220559

Hi,

I haven't posted for a while as things were going okay, until now.

The situation is I have 4 debts with a bank. They consist of an overdraft, 2 personal loans and a credit card.

I went to the CAB and with their help drew up an Income and Expenditure form with pro-rata offers of payment on these debts, plus other debts I have. These were going okay until recently.

I then had a letter from a company saying I owed £xxxxx to the Bank in question and that they were acting on behalf of said bank and that they required the balance within 7 days. I contacted them and explained that my OH and I were on Incapacity Benefit and a small pension and that I simply don't have the money. They then said they were going to issue a court summons which they did.

I rang the National Debtline, as I was in a panic and he told me to dispute the amount quoted as I did not know to which of the 4 debts they were referring and they didn't seem able to tell me. This is did and requested signed CCA's, deeds of assignments and full statements of account so that I knew exactly which debts they were chasing me for.

I have received some paperwork from them now but am unsure as to whether it is in order.

It appears that this company is chasing me for the overdraft and the 2 loans. They have sent me what looks to be a credit agreement which states the following.

My name and details.
My husbands name and details ( as the 2nd customer)

Date of birth and home phone number details are blank.

On the right hand side there is:

Details of Loan (amount)
Insurance Loan (amount)

Interest and admin fee (amounts)

Total amounts payable

APR

Details of repayments - 60 payments of £xxx for loan
" " " " for PPI

With this is a covering letter which states:

...."When responding to requests made under section 77, the Bank may provide you with a 'true copy' of your agreement in accordance with Regulations 3(1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. This means that under section 77 there is no obligation for the bank to provide you with a copy of the original agreement bearing your signature. A 'true copy' does not need to contain any personal information relating to you as the debtor nor does it need to include a signature box, any signatures or dates of signature...."

Please can someone tell me if this is correct before I go any further. They seem determined now to take us to court despite the fact that we already have our house on the market, but have no buyer, not suprisingly!

My husband had a 3rd heart attack on 5th october and is still undergoing treatment. I have explained that I am getting increasingly worried for his health, and indeed mine (I suffer from depression and M.E.) but they seem determined to press on with court. I don't know how I am going to cope if it goes that far.

Has anyone please got any help or advice for me?

ebsay2000

just bumping this post up.

insider66

My husband had a 3rd heart attack on 5th october and is still undergoing treatment. I have explained that I am getting increasingly worried for his health, and indeed mine (I suffer from depression and M.E.) but they seem determined to press on with court. I don't know how I am going to cope if it goes that far.

Has anyone please got any help or advice for me?


I just want to say that the court process is not nearly as bad as it is frightening.

The judge in county court will look at the situation and probably agree that you owe the money, i presume you agree too?

From there he will look at your income and expenditure and probably make an order for you to repay the amount you are already paying.

Good luck

Kathy220559

I am not disputing that I owe them money, but I am not sure whether or not the amounts are correct.

The 'agreement' they have sent me just has my name and address and various sums of money. I honestly cannot remember what the total amount borrowed was, and seeing as it is not signed by myself of my OH they could just have put anything.

Does it not have to be signed?

fatbelly

To comply with your section 77 request, the creditor only has to rpovide a 'true' copy of the agreement i.e. not necessarily signed.

However, if the agreement is regulated under s8 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA 1974), i.e. the loans but not the overdraft then...

Under s61(1)(a) a regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations under s60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.

Under s65(1) CCA1974 an improperly executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor on an order of the court only.

Under s127(3) CCA1974 the court shall not make an enforcement order under s65(1) if s61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with.

So, the point you need to put to them is - if they can't show you a signed agreement, how can they show one to the court? Did you put this in your defence when you responded to the court claim form?

GeorgeUK

I think the only way to find out if they have a signed copy of the agreement is to send a SAR (cost £10) but it might not be worth spending the money just to find out.

Have you tried reclaiming any charges that were applied to the loan or looked to see if the PPI was missold? If there are charges, you may be able to argue that the amount owed is in dispute unless the bank can can show the actual breakdown of cost for the charges. (I read that on the consumeractiongroup forum ages ago - sorry i'm not too clear on the legalities involved)

Kathy220559

fatbelly...thanks for your reply. How do I know if the agreement is regulated under s8 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974?

Would they have to show a signed copy of the agreement to the court?

I am sorry about all the questions but I have to get in touch with them soon to let them know if I agree with the figures or not and I really don't know.

I know the overdraft won't have any signed paperwork, but the loan should have surely. I just want to make sure the figures are correct before I agree to them.

What do you think my next step should be?

10past6

Kathy220559 wrote: »

What do you think my next step should be?

Write to them disputing the figures, ask them for a breakdown, if nothing else, this will give you some breathing space.

Kathy220559

I have already queried the figures and they have sent me this 'true' agreement for one of the loans but not the other one.

The agreement just says it is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act of 1974. If there is no signature how do I know that they have the correct amount on the loan.

Georgeuk...I haven't checked yet for charges, I was going to do that and try to claim them back, would you suggest I dispute them now instead?

I don't think I can claim any PPI back as I have claimed already.

I just don't know if the paperwork they have sent me is correct and I don't know how to find out.

GeorgeUK

From the details you have listed, if this is all contained in the one document - the CCA, it looks like all the prescribed terms are there. An overdraft won't have a credit agreement.

Are they threatening to take you to court (have they started proceedings?), you could state in your defence that the amount they are asking for is incorrect. I will have a look for some information on that from the CAG board if required.

Are all of these accounts with the one bank? If so, i would send the bank a subject access request (SAR) so that they will not only need to send you copies of all documentation, but also the transactions for the past 6 years. This should allow you to see all the transactions and determine what you can reclaim in charges. If you do not specify an account number, they will need to send you the details of all information they hold on you - for all accounts.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=12547639#post12547639

For the overdrafts, while they are governed by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, they are exempt from from parts of it (Section 5 i think), which means there will be no actual credit agreement which you have signed. They should however have issued you a letter stating the credit amount, APR and the T&C of cancellation and charges. If this is not included in the SAR, then the debt may be unenforcable as they must notify you in writing about the details of the overdraft.

Kathy220559

Hi George,

They have already started court proceedings and I recieved the court papers which I completed disputing the amount because I did not know which of the debts it referred to. This was done on the advice of National Debtline.

I then asked for CCA's deeds of assignment and statements of account for the debts they were persuing.

They then sent me a letter detailing the debts which consisteed of an overdraft for which they have also sent all bank statements from 2001 which gives a final balance before they closed the account which matches the figure they are chasing. There is no other paperwork regarding this. I also have never received a letter telling me my credit limit. I know when I was first in financial difficulties I kept ringing them requesting a higher overdraft (stupid I know) and they would keep increasing it. The last balance on my statment shows me £4210 overdrawn! This increased to a final balance of £5608 when interest charges are added on. I have a huge bundle of statements I need to go through to check for charges. Would I need to claim those back later?

They have also sent me 2 'loan' agreements the one I quoted above and a completely different layout for the 2nd one.

They have also sent details of all payments I have made on both loans. So that seems all present and correct.

I am just suprised that they cannot supply me with a signed copy of my agreement so that I know for sure that the amounts they are saying I borrowed are correct. Is it true that they do not have to do this. If this is the case how do I even know that the amounts they have quoted me are mine. They have all my details because I have banked with them for 30 years so this agreement could refer to anyone.

I am claimed for 12 months PPI but I wish I had realised at the time that I would pay £1,227 on a loan of £5400 for only 12 months payments, and £1494 on a loan of £6100. As I sais, I was told at the time and also subsequently that it would covered me for the entire balance. I just believed them, niave I know now.

Everything is from the same bank. I am getting really worried now as they are chasing me to see whether or not I agree with their figures.

I have also sent them an Income and Expenditure form which states that both my husband and myself are only in receipt of Incapacity Benefit and a small works pension. I have told them he had a heart attack on 5th october 2008 and that we have even put our house up for sale to downsize and clear all our debts, but they are intent on going to court.

I would be really grateful if you, or anyone else, could find out any information for me as I am going to have to contact them in the next couple of days one way or another.