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Br 6/11/08 Advice From Here On Please.

Hi,
I have read some of the threads on here and brilliant they are too! I would really like some advice/benefit of other peoples experiences so I have a better idea of what will happen now.Just so I give a bit of background our story is thus.

Partner self employed always has been. Me was employed now self employed and have been during past 2 years.
2003/4: Self employed business/ living according to our means. Big problems with oldest child (of our 4 kids) - went completely off the rails out of the blue. Result having to put family first and loss of partners business. Debts built up on credit cards, loans, utility bills etc inc rent arrears to housing assoc - able to move due to changes in extended family now rent house from father in law.
2004 - current: Money/family issues have caused lots of stress and other half basically lost the will to do anything having seen his business just disappear. Have kind of buried heads in sand (and did escape for a while after moving) although he did try to sort something with W3 Debt but nothing ever came of that. Other issues such as death of my mother and my father who has been diagnosed with vascular dementia coming to live with us have occurred. BR resulted from debt for Council Tax....tried in vain and under direction of judge to try and reach agreement but they were having nothing less than £250 a month, which was impossible. Council have pursued the BR as they will not accept that I did not inherit from my mother on her death. Basically life has just been one long drama since 2003

CURRENT SITUATION
TBH BR is prob the best thing that could have happened to us and we needed someone to take the decision for us, which the judge did.....albeit in what I view was a rather underhand way.
We have no assets save for work van for partner, work PC (4 years old) for me and partner. Have 1 car which I do need for kids school run and work worth no more than 1K. We have another broken down car which needs min £500 to mend it. No property or anything else of any value. Debt totals are approx 40K for me and 15K for partner.
Have had letter giving us a date for meeting on 26/11 at an office which is a 70 mile round trip which may need to be made in 2 vehicles (making 140 miles) due to kids pick up and my Dad's care.

QUESTIONS

a) Why do we have they chosen us to physically? Why not a phone call? Why have they allocated us 3 hrs each? Read in a thread that they categorize you according to how complex they think your case is. Can't see we will be that difficult, we owe money but have no assets simple as that. The only problem I foresee is non submission of tax returns although we have all the info required in relation to that. If I don't take 3hrs (I am in first will we have to wait till partners appointed time?) Does the fact we have been allocated this amount of time and a F2F meeting mean that they think we are complex? Should we perhaps ring them and discuss this with them and see if they have been mislead in some way of our circumstances?

b) Neither of us have officially prepared accounts.....think my earnings are prob under tax threshold anyway. Will this be a prob? We will be able to produce our own workings out. What if Tax returns have not been submitted in last 2 years? Unlikely there would be tax payments due anyway.

c) Business Debtline said that if he seems to make no profit they could choose to take his van.....it is worth 1K maybe less is this likely? Not sure how figures will stack up as yet but he doesn't make oodles.

d) As we have to complete 2 forms how have other people sort of divided things out in terms of outgoings?

e) I assume from a quick scan of the paperwork that I have to tell them my Dad lives here, where does he fit into this. I mean am I expected to include a household contribution from him?

f) Also what is included in the bankruptcy? Is it everything except for Magistrate fines (we have none). What about WFTC, they seem to be chasing us for a 8K over payment - which isn't actually an overpayment is is related to the fact that other half hadn't submitted tax returns when he should of.

g) If he has money outstanding from a job he has done and is having trouble collecting the outstanding amount does the official receiver pursue this as part of the bankruptcy?

h) Should we request copies of our credit files in case we have forgotten something? If so all agencies or just one? What happens if a debt comes to light after the forms are completed, not deliberately but due to forgetting about it?

i) Does anyone have links to sites that might help us with ideas of allowable expenses. I am wondering about things like mobile bills and Sky TV and things I perceive might be deemed unnecessary.

j) do we sound like candidates for a BRO?

Any help experience with any of this would be so helpful.........I am sure I will think of some more questions soon lol.

I am really rather worried about this meeting....and the fact mine is first.

Sorry for the ramble - just thought a bit of background might help for answers.


Cheers
«1

Comments

  • Hi,

    QUESTIONS

    a) Why do we have they chosen us to physically? Why not a phone call? Why have they allocated us 3 hrs each? Read in a thread that they categorize you according to how complex they think your case is If you are self employed and have business debts they like to see you F2F.. Can't see we will be that difficult, we owe money but have no assets simple as that. The only problem I foresee is non submission of tax returns although we have all the info required in relation to that. If I don't take 3hrs (I am in first will we have to wait till partners appointed time? In general yes, but you may be lucky.) Does the fact we have been allocated this amount of time and a F2F meeting mean that they think we are complex? Should we perhaps ring them and discuss this with them and see if they have been mislead in some way of our circumstances? As mentioned it is just because you have business debts.

    b) Neither of us have officially prepared accounts.....think my earnings are prob under tax threshold anyway. Will this be a prob? We will be able to produce our own workings out. What if Tax returns have not been submitted in last 2 years? Unlikely there would be tax payments due anyway. Shouldn't be a problem but I am sure someone will be able to confirm this as I am not 100%

    c) Business Debtline said that if he seems to make no profit they could choose to take his van.....it is worth 1K maybe less is this likely? Not sure how figures will stack up as yet but he doesn't make oodles. But if they take his van he won't be able to build his business up again and earn money to potentially go into an IPA. But vehicle are entirely up to how the OR's feel on the day. Try to prove that it is essential and not a luxury.

    d) As we have to complete 2 forms how have other people sort of divided things out in terms of outgoings?

    e) I assume from a quick scan of the paperwork that I have to tell them my Dad lives here, where does he fit into this. I mean am I expected to include a household contribution from him? On your SOA's put your joint bills ie rent and utilities and then on your's put your essential outgoings ie mobile, hairdressers.On yours put your income, your DH contribution to the joint household and how much your Dad contrbutes to the joint household. Hope that makes sense.

    f) Also what is included in the bankruptcy? Is it everything except for Magistrate fines (we have none). What about WFTC, they seem to be chasing us for a 8K over payment - which isn't actually an overpayment is is related to the fact that other half hadn't submitted tax returns when he should of. Everything except things like Student Loans and magistrates fines is included, though you may have a fight with WTC that it is. If they cause problems just ask on here for help.

    g) If he has money outstanding from a job he has done and is having trouble collecting the outstanding amount does the official receiver pursue this as part of the bankruptcy? You can give the OR the details and he can chase it if he wishes.

    h) Should we request copies of our credit files in case we have forgotten something? If so all agencies or just one? What happens if a debt comes to light after the forms are completed, not deliberately but due to forgetting about it? No, don't worry about it. Any thing you forget to put down is included up to the date of your BR. This is why your BR details are published in a local paper, on the London Gazette website and on the IS website, to give creditors a chance to come forward and stake a claim with the OR.

    i) Does anyone have links to sites that might help us with ideas of allowable expenses. I am wondering about things like mobile bills and Sky TV and things I perceive might be deemed unnecessary.Just put down what you normally spend. Pop up your SOA on here and we can check you haven't forgotten anything. Use this link for a SOA form to help http://www.makesenseofcards.com/soacalc.html . Also search this forum to see what others have put. Sky will have to come out of any surplus you have. Resonable mobile bills are fine.

    j) do we sound like candidates for a BRO? Hard to say. It is up to individual OR's. Check this link

    Bankruptcy Restriction Undertakings / Orders.

    Bankruptcy Restrictions Orders (IS)

    FAQ - Bankruptcy Restriction Orders / Untertaking ( BRO/BRU ) (IS)


    Any help experience with any of this would be so helpful.........I am sure I will think of some more questions soon lol.

    I am really rather worried about this meeting....and the fact mine is first.

    Sorry for the ramble - just thought a bit of background might help for answers.


    Cheers

    Keep asking questions, knowledge is king. Read the Bankruptcy Help sticky especially the first post and look at the links. Also read as many threads on here as you can
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1056083

    All the best and welcome to the board.
    BSCno.87
    The only stupid question is an unasked one
    Loving life as a Kernow Hippy
  • Hi Strimmerman

    Welcome aboard ...I was going to add but Tiger done such a great job!!

    In terms of the OR meetings...take what paperwork you can & remember that as you had business it is usual to have a face to face so dont worry about that. Also just answer what you are asked....try not to waffle on as the OR will want short concise answers anyway.

    Angexx
  • fiveyearplan
    fiveyearplan Posts: 10,143 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    FYI I didn't have any accounts for the business I had been running for 2 years. I just told the OR I couldn't afford an accountant and it was left at that. I didn't receive a BRO either - well so far anyway and I'm 7 months into my BR!

    :j :j


  • Many thanks for your quick replies. Thanks for for the warm welcome. I will try not to pester you all too much.

    I did read a thread that said say nothing other than asked.....so will button my lips lol. Short simple answers and no elaboration.
    • FIVEYEARPLAN - did you mean by that. that you provided nothing at all not even your own workings out of your accounts, or did you take/provide those in place of accountant prepared accounts?
    • TIGERFEET - e) I assume from a quick scan of the paperwork that I have to tell them my Dad lives here, where does he fit into this. I mean am I expected to include a household contribution from him? On your SOA's put your joint bills ie rent and utilities and then on your's put your essential outgoings ie mobile, hairdressers.On yours put your income, your DH contribution to the joint household and how much your Dad contrbutes to the joint household. Hope that makes sense.
    • Can I just check here. As we are both self employed income is very hit and miss. The definate gaurenteed money that always arrives is our WFTC which is paid to me. So in theory once we have worked it out it may well come out that I have more money coming in to me than my other half does.
    • Is want you meant put all the essential rent etc on my other halfs SOA? Adding what I decide is my Dad's contribtion to my SOA.
    • I am just getting to grips with the shorthand on here....what is DH?
    • In view of the fact on paper it may work out that I have more income should I then service the essentials through my SOA?
    Had a quick look at the link for the SOA...thats brill.
    • Any links to sites that give indications of amounts?
    I asked Business Debt Line and they mentioned a couple of things like £8 a month for healthcare. They did also say a vague amount of acceptable housekeeping but also said the OR was generally a bit more generous than they were esp due to recent food price increases.
    • My Dad doen't kind of actually give us a set amount, it doesn't work like that. What kind of contribution would the OR expect to be seeing coming from him?
    • Also should we present only the current household SOA. I mean what is actually happening right now. Usually with self employed things it is all about what happened in the last tax year or forcasting what you think will happen. Am I assuming correctly that what we prepare for the OR is based on the facts current and this very second?
    Thanks for the info on why we have been summoned to them. I did then re-read the info and worked out it was prob as we were self employed.

    My meeting is at 10am and it will be really pushing it (in terms of traffic and being late) for me to get there by that time, as I have children to take to school. The other halfs is supposed to be at 1pm. We have issues surrounding care of my Dad we don't like leaving him alone....and certainly not for that amount of time and also school pick up and drop off times. Will they be open to us having to have appts on different days as I just don't see how we can manage to get there on the same day....short of having to make our eldest son take a day off college to be at home (which I really am against doing).

    Another thing I wanted to ask was the dreaded "going in the paper". I think that aside from wobbles about the OR interview that is my other "OMG" moment. I read on here that some people have never had it published in the local paper. Is it hit and miss and do they just decide what paper it is or do they ask you which paper is your local one. Also does anyone have any ideas how long or whereabout in the process of BR it tends to be printed? I am hoping it will be Xmas and no-one will notice lol. Just want to be prepared as we have told other halfs mum who was rather laid back about it but haven't told his dad yet as he might not be quite so cool.....don't want him to open the paper and read it this week and suffer shock.... want to catch him at the right time to tell him. I know I should really "get over it" but we live in a really gossipy village area and I know people will be tongue wagging.

    Will post the SOA once they are ready.
  • Our local paper shows the names and addresses right at the back where all the escort agencies and massage parlours advertise? I would imagine very few people even look at them. Apart from the type of people who are a bit odd in the first place so don't worry about it - it only goes in once then it's used in the bottom of bird cages or as in my case my bunnies poop box!

    Jaynee123
  • fiveyearplan
    fiveyearplan Posts: 10,143 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    You could always phone the OR and see if you and OH can have back to back appointments because travelling is difficult and you need to plan it around school drop off/pick up times. My OR always asked if the time of the appointment was convienent both for the f2f and any phone calls that were made. I did ask once if he could ring me back because I was sitting at my desk at work and it was no problem at all.

    :j :j


  • fiveyearplan
    fiveyearplan Posts: 10,143 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    ps - just saw your question to me regarding company accounts. My ltd company had been dissolved 3 months prior to my BR and I took absolutely no accounts or workings out of any sort. I did however have my business bank statements which clearly showed I wasn't making profit or taking money out of the account for personal use. He did ask if I had and bookeeping and I said it was on a software package on the computer. The computer has since died but the OR has never asked for any more details but if he did now it would be too late because they are lost in cyberspace!

    As for my sole trader business, that ceased on the day of my BR because that is what was in my contract. I did have accounts for previous years and only incomplete accounts for the current year. I didn't give him any accounts though and he never did ask. However my accountants name and address were on my forms. My accountant was one of my creditors £450 for those incomplete accounts that I could not pay which is why the accounts are incomplete! My office is still in the same building as my accountant and last time I spoke to him he had not been contacted by the OR. I'm now 7 1/2 months into my BR and am itching to declutter and throw away all my accounts for the last 6 years!

    I didn't get a BRO/BRU for not having the accounts. If I could have afforded to have them done I would but by that stage I needed every penny to survive.

    :j :j


  • fiveyearplan
    fiveyearplan Posts: 10,143 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Many thanks for your quick replies. Thanks for for the warm welcome. I will try not to pester you all too much.

    I did read a thread that said say nothing other than asked.....so will button my lips lol. Short simple answers and no elaboration.
    • FIVEYEARPLAN - did you mean by that. that you provided nothing at all not even your own workings out of your accounts, or did you take/provide those in place of accountant prepared accounts? See post below
    • TIGERFEET - e) I assume from a quick scan of the paperwork that I have to tell them my Dad lives here, where does he fit into this. I mean am I expected to include a household contribution from him? On your SOA's put your joint bills ie rent and utilities and then on your's put your essential outgoings ie mobile, hairdressers.On yours put your income, your DH contribution to the joint household and how much your Dad contrbutes to the joint household. Hope that makes sense.
    • Can I just check here. As we are both self employed income is very hit and miss. The definate gaurenteed money that always arrives is our WFTC which is paid to me. So in theory once we have worked it out it may well come out that I have more money coming in to me than my other half does.
    • Is want you meant put all the essential rent etc on my other halfs SOA? Adding what I decide is my Dad's contribtion to my SOA. Does your dad depend on you or does he have some sort of pension? Having that extra person at home you will be able to add him into your expenses for housekeeping etc.
    • I am just getting to grips with the shorthand on here....what is DH? darling husband
    • In view of the fact on paper it may work out that I have more income should I then service the essentials through my SOA?
    Had a quick look at the link for the SOA...thats brill.
    • Any links to sites that give indications of amounts?
    I asked Business Debt Line and they mentioned a couple of things like £8 a month for healthcare. They did also say a vague amount of acceptable housekeeping but also said the OR was generally a bit more generous than they were esp due to recent food price increases.
    • My Dad doen't kind of actually give us a set amount, it doesn't work like that. What kind of contribution would the OR expect to be seeing coming from him? Depends if he has any income, pension etc.
    • Also should we present only the current household SOA. I mean what is actually happening right now. Usually with self employed things it is all about what happened in the last tax year or forcasting what you think will happen. Am I assuming correctly that what we prepare for the OR is based on the facts current and this very second? Yes, put expenses as they are today.
    Thanks for the info on why we have been summoned to them. I did then re-read the info and worked out it was prob as we were self employed.

    My meeting is at 10am and it will be really pushing it (in terms of traffic and being late) for me to get there by that time, as I have children to take to school. The other halfs is supposed to be at 1pm. We have issues surrounding care of my Dad we don't like leaving him alone....and certainly not for that amount of time and also school pick up and drop off times. Will they be open to us having to have appts on different days as I just don't see how we can manage to get there on the same day....short of having to make our eldest son take a day off college to be at home (which I really am against doing). If you let them know your predicament they should come to some arrangement and see you in the middle of the day and back to back appointments.

    Another thing I wanted to ask was the dreaded "going in the paper". I think that aside from wobbles about the OR interview that is my other "OMG" moment. I read on here that some people have never had it published in the local paper. Is it hit and miss and do they just decide what paper it is or do they ask you which paper is your local one. It depends on your local paper, ours doesn't carry BRs only insolvent limited companies get mentioned. Also does anyone have any ideas how long or whereabout in the process of BR it tends to be printed? I am hoping it will be Xmas and no-one will notice lol. Just want to be prepared as we have told other halfs mum who was rather laid back about it but haven't told his dad yet as he might not be quite so cool.....don't want him to open the paper and read it this week and suffer shock.... want to catch him at the right time to tell him. I know I should really "get over it" but we live in a really gossipy village area and I know people will be tongue wagging. Its really your business whether or not you want to tell people.

    Will post the SOA once they are ready.

    It seems all the good colours were already taken so I made my comments in orange!

    :j :j


  • Richard_S
    Richard_S Posts: 4,432 Forumite
    Hi Strimmerman,

    I think most of your questions have been answered, and the only thing I can add is that if the appointment times are not possible for you to meet, then reschedule them. You're not expected to compromise the safety or education of your children to attend the O.R's meeting. I had to cancel out first meeting because we were on holiday, and I had no intention of missing that.:cool: :beer:

    As for the three hour face to face meeting that's quite normal if you were in business. It does take longer for them to assess whether you were conducting your affairs properly. And don't worry about any minor indiscretions; there were transfers between us and our company running into tens of thousands and I couldn't remember what they were for.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    We were supposed to be interviewed seperately but my O.H stated quite categorically that if she was interviewed on her own it wouldn't last more than confirming her name, because apart from that she'd had no input into our finances; they interviewed us together. It started at 11a.m and we didn't get out until almost 4:30pm but we did manage to get quite a few "comfort breaks," and it was quite intensive but no big deal.

    As for your income, if it's mostly tax credits and intermittent self employed income, then it's highly unlikely that you'll get an IPA, so don't try and do too much in terms of an Income & Expenditure budget; let the O.R work that one out. Don't sign anything until you've let us have a look at what's been agreed, and try to relax, and not worry unnecessarily.

    Regards

    Richard
  • JCS1
    JCS1 Posts: 5,321 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    Office interviews are standard procedure for creditors petitions, so don't worry about that aspect. Also, 3 hours is the standard time allowed for face to face interviews, though they sometimes take less time, really depends on how well you've completed the paperwork and if the examiner has any questions.
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