NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

goodbyepci

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/stricken-presbyterian-mutual-society-may-yet-be-saved-by-bank-14736423.html

totallyletdown

expat68 wrote: »

http://www.presbyterianmutualsociety.co.uk/

Creditors (i.e. "total savings" less £20,000) will receive 12p in pound as a distribution towards end April

Creditors committee will be appointed - only took 15 months!

John 2009 - administration CAN be extended subject to court approval

Plus some other points besides.........

I thought creditors were not getting anything and people with over 20k were the only ones to get a small payout ?

I'm confused.

Flinflon

totallyletdown wrote: »

I thought creditors were not getting anything and people with over 20k were the only ones to get a small payout ?

I'm confused.

Just to try making things clearer: People with £20,000 or less in PMS are deemed to be shareholders. People with more than £20,000 in the PMS (say, £30,000) are deemed to be creditors. That is, they have loaned the PMS £10,000. Under the court decision, in keeping with long-standing practice, the creditors have first call on the money to be distributed. Shareholders will get nothing in this pending payout--and likely not for a long time afterward, if at all. So, for example, if you have £30,000 in the PMS, £20,000 would be share capital, and exempt from any of the pending payout. :mad: The balance of £10,000, however, would be elligible for a 12 percent payout--that is, £1,200, at the end of April. Anyway, that's my understanding of it, but perhaps someone else sees it another way.

totallyletdown

Flinflon wrote: »

Just to try making things clearer: People with £20,000 or less in PMS are deemed to be shareholders. People with more than £20,000 in the PMS (say, £30,000) are deemed to be creditors. That is, they have loaned the PMS £10,000. Under the court decision, in keeping with long-standing practice, the creditors have first call on the money to be distributed. Shareholders will get nothing in this pending payout--and likely not for a long time afterward, if at all. So, for example, if you have £30,000 in the PMS, £20,000 would be share capital, and exempt from any of the pending payout. :mad: The balance of £10,000, however, would be elligible for a 12 percent payout--that is, £1,200, at the end of April. Anyway, that's my understanding of it, but perhaps someone else sees it another way.

this is conflicing what EXPAT states ???

goodbyepci

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8582958.stm

Mark789

Folks, this whole area is very confusing so I hope this won't add to the confusion.
When I read the rules of the PMS I understood that the first £20,000 could be saved only in shares and that only once a member had £20,000 in shares would any excess be saved in the form of loan notes.
I also took this to imply that any withdrawals would need to be made from loan notes first and that share withdrawals could be made only once the loan note balance was 0.
Based on various posts on this thread, it appears that I was wrong and people were allowed to withdraw from shares while still maintaining a loan note balance.
This means that any discussion based solely on any monetary value, i.e. £20,000 is wrong and we should use the terminology used by the administrator in his update to the PMS web site:

the High Court directed that those holding withdrawable share capital in the Society cannot be classified as creditors and, as a result, cannot receive a distribution until such time as creditors have been paid in full

i.e. If you have shares you get nothing from that amount in April and probably not for quite a while. If you have loan notes you get 12% of that amount in April and you have to get all of that back before anybody gets anything from their shares. So, total holding is irrelevant except in so far as if its above £20,000 the part above £20,000 must be in loan notes, so you'll get 12% on that, but whatever your total holding, if you were lucky enough, or well informed and immoral enough, to withdraw from your shares while leaving a balance in your loan notes then you'll still get your 12% on your loan note balance.

I wonder how many of the people who truly are suffering from this debacle, like my parents, were that lucky or well informed? I know my parents weren't and I suspect very few others were.

goodbyepci

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/39Bank-rescue-is-preferred-option.6171813.jp

Ballygal

Home an hour ago (as on annual leave this afternoon:j ) to find a letter from Mr Boyd on my doorstep.:mad: Took away my happiness as I was absolutely livid. In addition to the PMS in the top left on the outside of the envelope in full view within the window designed for the address was also ''TO ALL LOAN CAPITAL HOLDERS!"
So this means that my postie or anybody else who happened to see the envelope and has followed the PMS story knows my private business. While i don't mind others on the forum who know who i am, knowing how much i have in PMS i DO mind that the very person who refuses to give out anything but the bare minimum of information to protecting the savers anonymity can now broadcast to the world that i am a capital holder!!!!


I think folk should be in no doubt about creditors/shareholders thanks to Flinfon and Mark 789's excellent clarification but i think i may muddy the waters slightly having read the letters!!
The first letter to the capital loan holders (What we called creditors with over 20,000!) is clear enough --- 12p in the £ as dividend.

BUT if you had share capital and had can evidence that you had applied before 25the October 2008 (which was when the 21 day rule came into play) to have it repaid you can then be treated like a creditor. Apparently this only applies to a very few people!

BETRAYED

Ballygal wrote: »

Home an hour ago (as on annual leave this afternoon:j ) to find a letter from Mr Boyd on my doorstep.:mad: Took away my happiness as I was absolutely livid. In addition to the PMS in the top left on the outside of the envelope in full view within the window designed for the address was also ''TO ALL LOAN CAPITAL HOLDERS!"
So this means that my postie or anybody else who happened to see the envelope and has followed the PMS story knows my private business. While i don't mind others on the forum who know who i am, knowing how much i have in PMS i DO mind that the very person who refuses to give out anything but the bare minimum of information to protecting the savers anonymity can now broadcast to the world that i am a capital holder!!!!

Mr Boyd obtained an order from the High Court on 7 Jan 2009 ' not to disclose the schedule of investments by members, investments made by way of share capital and details of borrowers.'

When I begged him to consider a Creditors' Committee a number of times he always told me that he could tell them nothing more than I can tell you.

clockworkorange

I have less than 20k in the PMS but my money is treated as loans and i will recieve a payout, how can this be ?

Not that I am complaining, but i don't really need the money.