NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

BETRAYED

I would like to thank all those who have contributed to this forum since it was set up. Thanks are also due to the person or persons who set it up in the first place.
For myself and others it has been a most useful source of information and contacts in this debacle of the PMS.
Thankfully a lifeline has now been thrown out to us.
This should open more doors for the administrator who up to now had his hands tied in many ways.
Until September for any PMS shareholder who needs financial help for any emergency he or she should contact their church minister. Meagre funds are available according to Church House (if we can believe them).
There is also a 'crisis loan' available from Social Security.
I notice that in the June edition of The Presbyterian Herald there is no reference to the PMS other than in the Editor's comments where he mentions it in the agenda for the General Assembly.
Please keep posting.

tightasaduck's

I hope that, at long last, something will be done to help all the savers with the PMS and the results of the recent meeting/s in No.10 will bring some joy and comfort to those, including my family and friends, who have been at their wit's end over this whole affair.

Lester_F

I don't believe that I, other shareholders or lobby groups can get all of savers' money back. We can only expect between 30% and 40% of it back.

Most PMS shareholders also know this. Many of whom are not old people or those with parents who have invested. They like me, they are of working age, married with dependants and with less than £40000 invested.

Maybe I will be proved wrong, but I think we are too far down the Government list of priorities. We should have been the directors' / former secretary's main concern !

BETRAYED

Lester_F wrote: »

I don't believe that I, other shareholders or lobby groups can get all of savers' money back. We can only expect between 30% and 40% of it back. QUOTE)

Sorry but I do not hold the pessimistic views of Lester F.
If there was to be a flash sale of assets and a quick run down of the PMS the 40% could be what 'savers' get back.
Value of building ground and houses already built has most likely bottomed out and property will again rise in value, albeit slowly.
and
1 The administrator has 10million pounds more in the bank than he had 6 months ago. Even paying his and legal expenses the total is 14million.
By the end of September he should be able to pay out interest to savers if an arrangement can be worked out to which the creditors agree.

2 Even some let properties have become vacant he has negotiated rent increases on other properties.
3 The working committee are going to see that the government increase from 35k to 50k guarantee did have the effect of increasing withdrawals from PMS.
4 Working committee will also see the problem with existing legislation regarding Industrial and Provident Instutions here compared to the rest of the UK and even the Republic of Ireland.
5 The shortfall of the society is a handful of millions not billions.
6 Reassurance of guarantee on deposits would allow many of us to keep our money in the new PMS
7 As well as doing accountancy work the administrator is having the securities against loans given out checked. He is still getting interest and repayment from existing lending and from his report it is only defaulters that are being persued for repayment of their loans. He is also having surveys done of partly developed sites to see if paying for completion work would bring a better return.

If there was a flash sale the only hope would be to go the courts to claim negligence on the part of the directors. They would say that it was the economic downturn that made their decision to lend to builder/developers look a bad one. If they were not operating the society according to their legal remit that could well be another charge against them.
The courts would cost a lot of money and take a long time. In my opinion members have been held in limbo long enough.

Please be hopeful for a satisfactory outcome. In the past year the value of our money against the dollar and the euro has probably fallen around 15% . We don't want further losses because it was in the PMS.

By the way, I was told recently that the ancient Greeks had a way of dealing with Prophets of Doom.

Lester_F

A lot of information will come out about the demise of the PMS in the future.

Lets not forget that a number of employees of the PMS have been made redundant. That is a very tough situation for people to find themselves in.

The directors / former secretary are entirely responsible for these redundancies.

It would be easy to be annoyed with the investors who got their money out during the 4 / 5 week run on the PMS back in September & October. I wish that I'd done the same.

Those who ran and facilited runners were right to do so. Its nothing to be ashamed of; even if they were, for the sake of example a serving minister and ex - moderator or the widow of an ex - moderator.

Nomad25

so that no-one is kept in the dark

Hear. Hear.

So much diverse information has come to light since I posted a few days ago, that I feel a bit naieve [sp?].

Over several months, I thought I had a reasonably well informed standpoint on this matter and as such, contributed to this thread, I realise now I was wrong.

I feel a bit of a [non] PMS plank now and no doubt others who read and some who have also made occasional contributions to this thread, will feel the same, when they read the last few posts.

It would appear we [understandably I suppose] were told very little.

joylikes2shop

Nomad25

Your post is very valid and one that no doubt many people can relate to. As a sporadic contributor to this forum, but AVID CAMPAIGNER on behalf of PMS savers, I too am frustrated by the lack of REGULAR information from NAMED RELIABLE sources.

This forum -to the best of my knowledge- is the ONLY regularly updated forum available which those genuinely interested in the PMS situation (as well as the occasional TROLL) can follow and contribute to, whether it be gossip,rumor,links to media reports or just general 'bant' (parents of teenagers will 'get' this !!!)

I have tried since November to promote this forum to anyone that I meet that wasn't/isn't already aware of it's existance.I do this to offer some sort of 'lifeline' to those feeling that they are dealing with the current situation in isolation.Sometimes I'm more proud of the direction the site is taking than others.I know at times we 'LOSE' savers who don't like the trolls or the 'in house' fighting.I have tried over the last 7 months to make getting in touch more easy for non MSE members...I've posted my joylikes2shop hotmail address to allow non MSE members an alternative to the PM facility to get in touch.....some other forum members have also done the same..... I don't know how the others faired, but in total over 7 months only about 8 people used this facility to contact me....then because advertising an email address is against the MSE rules I had my joylikes2shop hotmail address removed from my posts.....

As I said in my post last night, when I became aware of Ian McGimpseys 'lobbying group' (''which is known in London as the PMS Savers Lobby Group NI'') I realised that they were under pressure coping with the influx of phone calls that the letter that had been sent out via the Presbyteries had generated. Since the group -as far as I could see - were purely providing email addresses of politicians to lobby, I asked for their permission to put this information on the forum. ....I did this while I was in receipt of their emails, and when -for some reason- I no longer was in receipt of their emails,another member of the forum took over, keeping us all informed of whom to lobby.

As suggested before, this information was purely for us to act on as we chose. I found the additional names and email addresses interesting and useful, but chose whom to contact and what to say myself.As far as I know the lobby group never had any meetings...I don't know when or how they'd have had the time to do so anyway..typing emails and making phonecalls takes up many hours...

I live in Belfast but travel to Donaghadee once a week to be part of the one and only group that I'm aware of (which meet on a regular basis)...I found out about it by fluke,I am made to feel VERY welcome, but it's not my place to advertise or promote their meetings because in reality I'm a 'Blow in' who doesn't even belong to the church !!
The Shore Street PMS Action Group were ONE of the groups who attended the 'public awareness campaign' on the opening night of the General Assembly.
The only other 'group' that I knew of (sorry if there were other groups that I wasn't aware of) had been organised by H Hume from Ballymena who has subsequently been on various TV and radio programmes highlighting the plight of the PMS savers.
In addition to this, there were individuals and small groups who arrived on the night purely because they had seen/heard media reports that a 'protest' was taking place on the opening night.I don't know how many people following this forum attended.

If there are any other 'groups', I am not aware of them but I'd LOVE the opportunity of putting such groups in touch with each other.As far as I can see, there does not seem like any easy way of doing this.People are reluctant to go public and they don't want to be seen as trouble makers.

I've seen various requests on this forum for the solicitors,lawyers, accountants and estate agents amongst the savers to get together and form a group....BRILLIANT idea, but in reality how would this come about.... ??

Location for a meeting of 'key' people would need to be arranged,unless a church hall or other possible venue could be provided free of charge, then any costs for hiring a convenient room would need to be paid for by those attending.So, this would mean not only would people be giving up their time, they'd also have to pay for the privilege,not to mention their transport costs, not to mention typing up a review of the meeting to put on here to then (probably) be subjected to more questioning etc etc.....you see, this is not going to be easy.


So at the risk of repeating myself, if anyone has any suggestions of how to put all these groups in touch with one another, please please PLEASE get in touch.....

BETRAYED

For those who want further reading this link should get
The Insolvency (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 under which the administrator is operating.
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=the+insolvency+northern+ireland+order&Year=1989&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&TYPE=QS&NavFrom=0&activeTextDocId=2997765&PageNumber=1&SortAlpha=0

There may be further amendments eg Rule 2.048 of Insolvency Rules (NI) 1991

ordained

PMS Dividend !!
Every one seems to accept that nothing can be done until the decision of the Gov.Committee in August when the final outcome shoud be made clear. However there is no reason why the Administrator can not pay out a dividend NOW !. He knows how much he has taken in since he took over. Why hold on to this amount of money, after all it does belong to us, the savers, it is our investment? Under normal circumstances we would have had a dividend back in March. Why the delay?

This would assist those of us who are in dire straits !!

Lets LOBBY for A PAYOUT NOW !!

BETRAYED

ordained wrote: »

PMS Dividend !!
Every one seems to accept that nothing can be done until the decision of the Gov.Committee in August when the final outcome shoud be made clear. However there is no reason why the Administrator can not pay out a dividend NOW !. He knows how much he has taken in since he took over. Why hold on to this amount of money, after all it does belong to us, the savers, it is our investment? Under normal circumstances we would have had a dividend back in March. Why the delay?

This would assist those of us who are in dire straits !!

Lets LOBBY for A PAYOUT NOW !!

I think this will happen. The administrator needs a vote of the creditors to allow this. He has obtained £236,000 in bank interest (on our money) over the past six months. I reckon c 3.36%.
I think he may also ask for approval of the creditors to treat smaller (under£20,000 investors as creditors) Many of us of a mutual mind would agree to that.
If the worst happens and we go down the road of insolvency it may be that any payment made will be considered part of the final pay out.
I am inclined to think that best result for everyone would be larger investors (Savers) keeping their money in the society.