Help with probate (and therefore money!) problem!!

kbr

Hi,
I was after a bit of advice from someone who may know where I stand. I am an executor for my grandmothers will along with my uncle (grandmothers son). We are also both the only beneficiaries.

My grandfather died in january (grandma still alive then) and my grandmother received a substantial payout from his private pension which went into her main bank account. At this point she had moved in with my uncle and his girlfriend as she couldn't look after herself and was confused etc. About a month after this payout my uncle gave me a cheque for £5000 and one for my son for £2000 saying it was a gift from my grandmother. He also said that other grandchildren had also received cheques etc of similar amounts. Fair enough, I thought and left it however the only thing that niggled me was the cheques were for my uncles account and I was told this was because my grandma could not sign her own cheque books anymore. Month later grandma died and her account was frozen.

Today me and uncle have been to sign for her probate at solicitors and when going through accounts for probate she mentioned that £36,000 had been transferred into my uncle's account, £14,000 of which went on cash gifts for grandchildren. That leaves £22,000 unaccounted for in his account. This has been put down as a gift to him.

I knew nothing of this sort of money being given to him and am annoyed that he has already had this money when she was of no fit state to give that kind of cash in gifts and he will also get half of what is left. Not only this but he used my grandfathers car as part ex for a car for his girlfriend and I have not had my share from that either even though this was put down as an asset for the probate. So he has had nearly £30,000 already of money which, in theory, should have been split between us as she was only alive another month after receiving money so would still have been in her account when she died had this transfer not taken place.

What, if anything, can I do about this? He is still claiming 50% of remaining estate which now I found this out doesn't seem fair. To clarify, even though I was a grandchild, they virtually brought me up and I lived with them for years so they always treated me like I was one of their children rather than grandchild. Any advice on what I can do please?

Loretta

Get some legal advice as soon as possible, you are an executor too and have an equal say and a duty to make sure the estate is dealt with properly. Is there a solicitor dealing with this?

NAR

Why not discuss this with your uncle first stating what you believe the position to be. Threaten the involvement of a solicitor if he does not see reason. Hopefully he will see sense.

kbr

Loretta wrote: »

Get some legal advice as soon as possible, you are an executor too and have an equal say and a duty to make sure the estate is dealt with properly. Is there a solicitor dealing with this?

yes there is a solicitor dealing with the probate application. As he 'acquired' this money whilst my grandma was still alive though, therefore her own money and not belonging to estate at this time, could I do anything? It just seems unlikely that gifts of between £2000 to £5000 were given out then my uncle gets £22,000!!

Errata

Speak to Action Elder Abuse. http://www.elderabuse.org.uk/Mainpages/Helpline.htmUnless your uncle had Power of Attorney it ould be considered that he has taken advantage of your grandmother's confusion and stolen from her.

sloughflint

kbr wrote: »

About a month after this payout my uncle gave me a cheque for £5000 and one for my son for £2000 saying it was a gift from my grandmother. He also said that other grandchildren had also received cheques etc of similar amounts. Fair enough, I thought and left it

You are saying here:

kbr wrote: »

annoyed that he has already had this money when she was of no fit state to give that kind of cash in gifts and he will also get half of what is left.

that she was in no fit state yet accepted the gifts from her when she was alive. If she was in no fit state,why did you and your son (and others) accept the money?

That's not a criticism but something to bear in mind before any accusations of theft are made or a solicitor is made very happy.

Also:
*He didn't keep £36k all for himself so from the outside looking in, it does look as though there has been some sort of dialogue between mother and son.
*There are different levels of confusion. People may be unable to look after themselves but still be able to make decisions about their money and what to do with it.
* Whilst a clumsy way to go about things, could your nan just for simplicity have just written the one cheque to her son and ask him to distribute from his account?
* The son was looking after and homing his mother. Could the mother have wanted to reflect this in the size of her gift?

As for the car, if that has been accounted for as an asset, you don't need to worry about this. You will get what's due to you at the end.Your uncle will just receive slightly less than you.

Debt_Free_Chick

kbr wrote: »

Hi,
I was after a bit of advice from someone who may know where I stand. I am an executor for my grandmothers will along with my uncle (grandmothers son). We are also both the only beneficiaries.

My grandfather died in january (grandma still alive then) and my grandmother received a substantial payout from his private pension which went into her main bank account.

This is normal - a lump sum from a registered pension plan does not go through the estate, so this would have been a payment direct to Grandmother and not part of grandfather's estate.

At this point she had moved in with my uncle and his girlfriend as she couldn't look after herself and was confused etc. About a month after this payout my uncle gave me a cheque for £5000 and one for my son for £2000 saying it was a gift from my grandmother. He also said that other grandchildren had also received cheques etc of similar amounts. Fair enough, I thought and left it however the only thing that niggled me was the cheques were for my uncles account and I was told this was because my grandma could not sign her own cheque books anymore. Month later grandma died and her account was frozen.

None of this is directly related to her estate, though as the cheques/gifts were written before her death.

Today me and uncle have been to sign for her probate at solicitors and when going through accounts for probate she mentioned that £36,000 had been transferred into my uncle's account, £14,000 of which went on cash gifts for grandchildren.

Who is "she" if you and your uncle went to sign for probate - is "she" the solicitor?

That leaves £22,000 unaccounted for in his account. This has been put down as a gift to him.

I cannot be sure, but there is usually no evidence of a gift. If it were a loan, one would expect some evidence although, granted, it's not unusual for their to be no written agreement of a loan between family members. This is the trouble ... no-one can ever know if this was a gift or a loan, unless there's something in writing. But if there's nothing in writing, then no-one can claim that this was "a loan" and not a gift.

Given that the money was paid into Grandmother's account first, she must have transferred it to uncle's account. Unless he had Power of attorney giving him the right to sign cheques and make transfers out of her account.

On the face of it, however, she transferred money to him and that's the end of it.

I knew nothing of this sort of money being given to him and am annoyed that he has already had this money when she was of no fit state to give that kind of cash in gifts and he will also get half of what is left. Not only this but he used my grandfathers car as part ex for a car for his girlfriend and I have not had my share from that either even though this was put down as an asset for the probate. So he has had nearly £30,000 already of money which, in theory, should have been split between us as she was only alive another month after receiving money so would still have been in her account when she died had this transfer not taken place.

But what if Grandmother wanted this to happen? I mean ..... what if she gave all that money to your uncle - he is her son, after all.

What, if anything, can I do about this? He is still claiming 50% of remaining estate which now I found this out doesn't seem fair. To clarify, even though I was a grandchild, they virtually brought me up and I lived with them for years so they always treated me like I was one of their children rather than grandchild. Any advice on what I can do please?

If her will gives him 50% of her residual estate, then that's what she wanted. He is her son, after all.

To summarise ... I don't see this as an executor issue. It seems more to do with those of Grandmother's assets that ended up in the estate and those she disposed of beforehand.

You're going to need some more evidence of wrongdoing, I fear.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I've just looked at the situation as you've posted it

Debt_Free_Chick

sloughflint wrote: »

* Whilst a clumsy way to go about things, could your nan just for simplicity have just written the one cheque to her son and ask him to distribute from his account?

I think this is what happened as the OP wrote

That leaves £22,000 unaccounted for in his account

I read that as .... "Grandmother paid money to my uncle. He gave some of it to us, as Grandmother wanted - but he kept the rest"

sloughflint

Debt_Free_Chick wrote: »

I think this is what happened as the OP wrote



I read that as .... "Grandmother paid money to my uncle. He gave some of it to us, as Grandmother wanted - but he kept the rest"

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. Knowing someone that finds the task of writing out a cheque tiresome, I wondered if nan just wrote the one cheque out to the son so that he could easily write the x cheques out rather than nan do it.
The fact that the cheques came from uncle's account, makes me guess that he didn't have POA or wasn't a signatory on the account.

Regarding what you put about records. It can be a good idea for people to keep records of what they gift ( IHT purposes for example) but as you say I daresay many families don't do this.

Debt_Free_Chick

sloughflint wrote: »

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. Knowing someone that finds the task of writing out a cheque tiresome, I wondered if nan just wrote the one cheque out to the son so that he could easily write the x cheques out rather than nan do it.

Sorry and I meant "he kept the rest, which is what Gran wanted".

I think we both agree - Gran said "here you go, have this money. Can you give £x to y and £a to b and keep the rest for yourself".

End of, I'm sorry to say - although not at all sorry, if that's what Gran wanted

Errata

Some useful and helpful points being made. my point is that if in January the grandmother

had moved in with my uncle and his girlfriend as she couldn't look after herself and was confused etc

she may not have had the mental capacity to fully understand what was happening to her money.

The number of older people who's money finishes up in a relatives bank account because they are unable to fully understand their financial affairs and relatives take advantage of this is substantial. It's classed as financial abuse, hence my suggestion that Action on Elder Abuse should be contacted.