Agricultural Occupancy Condition

Davesnave

forestlands wrote: »

Received an eviction notice in July, gave me 3 months to leave - ridiculous, not going to make it! I was sure I was entitled to at least 1 year, as the property has AOC! My husband and I signed an assured shorthold tenancy agreement.....

I need to ensure I get 1 year, or more, notice. Working on my own it's impossible to move in 3 months

The salient fact is that you signed an AST, not that the property has an AOC.

The AOC is a planning condition set at the time permission to build was granted, so there is nothing tying it to notice periods for renting, which are governed by your rental agreement.

The good news is that your landlady cannot end your tenancy; only you or a court can do that. So, although she's given notice that she wants you to leave, enforcing that will take longer than 3 months, and possibly more than 6 months.

A year is optimistic!

The next thing is probably to see if your landlady has served notice correctly. Many don't. If they mess-up, then an invalid S21 will not be backed by a court and they'll have to start over again.

I'm no expert on tenancies, but I know there are people on the House Buying and Renting Board who are. One such is GM who has written extensively on the subject. Here is a link to much useful stuff.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5180214/tenancies-in-eng-wales-guides-for-landlords-and-tenants

S21 checking tool is about 1/2 way down the page.

Good luck!

EachPenny

forestlands wrote: »

I has been hard work, enjoyable and rewarding, in the beautiful Suffolk countryside!

It is a long shot, but it might be worth contacting SCC as they still retain a small portfolio of agricultural/horticultural properties for rent. No idea if there are any in areas which would be suitable for you, but one of the things I read some time ago is they were looking at splitting some sites up because of a lack of interest from people taking them on a whole-farm basis.
https://www.suffolk.gov.uk/business-jobs-and-careers/council-services-for-business/renting-land-or-premises/
If nothing else, the County land agents (if they are anything like the ones I knew ) would have a knowledge of any other land which might be suitable for your needs.

Also, I know that many Suffolk farms have dropped their own livestock and gone 100% arable, but have livestock buildings which are not really being utilised. It might be worth being pro-active and rather than waiting for something to come up on the market to rent, instead to go round (or use contacts) to see if anyone has got anything suitable which it hadn't occured to them to rent out.

Good luck, hope you manage to find something.

Lambert69

Hi, did any one have any luck finding the case mentioned on another post from a few years ago involving Woods versus the Secretary of state and Gt Yarmouth planning department, I have searched in vain. It was first mentioned by Planning-officer in about 2010, Fred.

The_field

Looking for advice with a potential property. Background is father is a farmer, purely arable 400+acres. He’s about 10 years off retirement and has no other property to retire to. He is the sole worker on the farm as there’s not enough money to support two wages. He has a very small pension. I’m his son, and have an interest in taking over in due course, however I know very little. I live 30 miles away with my wife and son, in a rented house not a lot of money just making ends meet most months. My question is if my father was to be granted a mortgage or loan to build a retirement property on his farm that he will retire to in the next 10 or so years, and had a subsequent AOC attached to the property would it be possible for me to live there whilst learning and taking on sole responsibilities. Whilst still in full time non agri work elsewhere and paying rent to my father to cover the mortgage/loan? So when the time comes he can retire to his property and I move Into the main farmhouse. It’s a tricky one but it’s the only way I see myself and my father being able to help each other out and for the farm to pass to me and my father to still be able to live out his retirement where he has been most of his life.

Davesnave

The_field wrote: »

It’s a tricky one but it’s the only way I see myself and my father being able to help each other out and for the farm to pass to me and my father to still be able to live out his retirement where he has been most of his life.

This will hinge on the economic and operational reasons that could be advanced for building a new property on the farm, given that your father has already managed it alone, and apparently successfully, for a number of years.

In my opinion, the matters of your succession to the farm, or where exactly your father lives in retirement would be irrelevant from a planning perspective.

Nowadays, showing there's a sound business reason for building a dwelling with an AOC is usually a quite rigorous process involving an examination of the accounts for 3 years or more. For that reason, I'd guess your interests might be best served by consulting an experienced land agent, to find the best way to present your father's case. Planning applications may stand or fall depending on how they're presented, not just their substance.

As for obtaining a loan or self-build mortgage in these circumstances, that's beyond my knowledge. Because of the extra difficulties in recouping their investment in a default situation, it would seem risky from a lender's perspective, and therefore expensive to service any loan that might be granted.

lincroft1710

The_field wrote: »

Background is father is a farmer, purely arable 400+acres. He’s about 10 years off retirement and has no other property to retire to. He is the sole worker on the farm as there’s not enough money to support two wages.

I am sure you or Davesnave will enlighten me, but it seems terrible that a 400 acre arable can only only support one person

Davesnave

lincroft1710 wrote: »

I am sure you or Davesnave will enlighten me, but it seems terrible that a 400 acre arable can only only support one person

Depends what's grown and if outside contractors are used.


Near me, youngsters on massive machines do the bulk of the arable work on a contract basis, while the 'farmer' does high-end engineering activities which interest him more and probably pay better. I think a consortium rents the farm and has day to day control over the land and crops.

stalkah

Great thread so thought I'd dig this back up rather than creating a new one.

We're looking at purchasing a Ag tie property but now have some concerns from reading we hadn't thought about such as mortgage. Reading some of these posts dating back a few years it sounds like most high street lenders are not likely to lend to us, is this still the case?

My wife would be the agricultural worker but really only once we move, she has loose ties atm but not entirely sure it would qualify, she is a part time worker for an ag company some of that work involves looking after farm animals for other farms, also has chickens she looks after for her employer.

When will we be required to prove we comply with the ag tie? How do we prove? I've read people receive a questionnaire asking to confirm compliance is it as simple as saying yes we comply because of xyz? Or do they need extra evidence?
If it helps the property is in the cotswolds and the wording is
"The occupation of the dwelling(s) shall be limited to persons employed or last employed solely or mainly and locally in agriculture as defined by Section 290(1) of the Town and Country Planning At 1971, or in forestry and the dependents (which shall be taken to include a widow or widower) of such persons.”

Davesnave

stalkah wrote: »

Great thread so thought I'd dig this back up rather than creating a new one. I'd prefer people to keep using this one, as it builds a resource, of sorts!

We're looking at purchasing a Ag tie property but now have some concerns from reading we hadn't thought about such as mortgage. Reading some of these posts dating back a few years it sounds like most high street lenders are not likely to lend to us, is this still the case? Lenders have become more risk-averse in recent times. You'd possibly get a mortgage via a specialist broker, but not at standard rates and probably not with a small deposit. This would work against the cost advantage of buying a property with an AOC.

My wife would be the agricultural worker but really only once we move, That would be OK, as what people do is often more important than what they did, unless retiring. she has loose ties atm but not entirely sure it would qualify, she is a part time worker for an ag company some of that work involves looking after farm animals for other farms, also has chickens she looks after for her employer.

When will we be required to prove we comply with the ag tie? How do we prove? I've read people receive a questionnaire asking to confirm compliance is it as simple as saying yes we comply because of xyz? Or do they need extra evidence?
If it helps the property is in the cotswolds and the wording is
"The occupation of the dwelling(s) shall be limited to persons employed or last employed solely or mainly and locally in agriculture as defined by Section 290(1) of the Town and Country Planning At 1971, or in forestry and the dependents (which shall be taken to include a widow or widower) of such persons.” That's pretty standard wording.

If you've read this thread, the basic message throughout is that every local authority manages agricultural ties in it's own way, so your questions aren't answerable in context. For a start, several different authorities cover 'The Cotswolds.'

Some authorities used to be very strict, but cut-backs have led to priorities changing, and ag-ties aren't high up their agenda. Enforcement of anything these days is a drain on precious resources. When did anyone last hear of people being evicted for non-compliance with an AOC?

In my own authority, it's fair to say that the council would prefer not to hear about non-compliance because there is too much of it for them to handle. Despite this, they staunchly defend the ag-tied status of properties, so rarely remove ties. However, if someone challenges their AOC after 10 years of non-compliance, they have to grant a Certificate of Lawful Development. In England and Wales, people are rewarded if they successfully break planning law for long enough!

Other authorities are more relaxed about removing ties.

So, to sum up, it's a lottery.

stalkah

Excellent thank you for the reply.

The EA are being a pain and stipulating we must currently meet the ag tie conditions and my wife has to be the main bread winner before even considering letting us view the property.

Obviously reading the posts on here I now know that is not the case. I will be on to them today as well as our mortgage advisor to make sure we could even get a mortgage. Could get a 30% deposit but as the place looks like it needs a bit of work would prefer to keep some of that back.