Do I need to get my tenants to sign an AST?

xeena

We have a property which was rented out as a holiday cottage, but one elderly couple who originally wanted it for 3 weeks have kind of ended up staying... The property had residential consent, so that's ok, and I know the income tax will be calculated differently, but my query is about what agreement I should have with the tenants.

At the moment, we have nothing official, they just pay up every fortnight, but I'm worried they could get rights over the property like this. Do I want to be getting them to sign an AST for my protection?

Many thanks

PasturesNew

How do you feel about them being there?
What do you think their intentions now are? What makes you think that?
How long have they been there?

I think the answer is helped bearing in mind these things

xeena

Thanks for replying PN

They're ok there, we don't have anything else to do with the property (we live next door - bought the two properties as a job lot on one title), as Holiday Lets didn't work - weather too bad on this mountain!! They're not in the best of health though, tbh I think they'd be better in Sheltered Accom but they like it here

Their intentions... they're wanderers, they don't want the hassle of sorting utilities and stuff out, they've been wandering between holiday accommodations for years but with failing health seem happy here. I sort the utilities out and add it onto their rent. Hell, I even take their rubbish down, lol! I think they'd be happy to stay there til ill health make it impossible (they struggle with the stairs now).

They've been there just over a year now, came in after holiday season last year. I said at the time that I'd have to sort out an AST if they were staying and they were fine with that, but I had an illness in the family then and never got round to sorting it out.

What I want from this: I need to be able to get them out if and when we decide to move - not on the cards at the moment, but would be nice to have less of a commute. I'm not worried about them having to give me notice if they go - as far as I'm concerned, they can leave whenever.

Premier_2

You'd probably be best arranging an ASTA for them.

I'm not sure they could gain an extra rights as any TA is an ASTA unless specifically stated otherwise - the fact you have nothing in writing yet doesn't mean they don't have a TA, but the best they could argue for is an ASTA I think (since they've got nothing to prove it's not an ASTA).

A couple of things to note:
1. If you set up a new ASTA, then they will have the right to stay there for at least 6 months if they wish (so you may want to arrange one earlier rather than later). It can be worded so that they can leave within 6 months if they wish but you can't evict them before that time.
2. They should probably be liable for council tax.

xeena

Thank you Premier That's a bit of a relief for me - I thought I'd heard a couple of years back (when ASTAs were fresh in) that tenancies were ASTAs unless stated otherwise, but I really wasn't sure.

I will find an ASTA on the web and sort it out

Oh, and Council Tax is the one utility they are responsible for - as they get it free - lol! Water, leccy, TV, phone - I sort.

Premier_2

TV licence could technically be an issue too, unless it is in their name and you just pay it.

As they are a separate family to you, they should have a tv licence of their own. They could be fined if it's not in their name.

However, the way the TV licensing agency work nowadays by primarily checking addresses without a valid licence, as long as there is a licence recorded at the address they probably won't get rumbled.

xeena

It's in their name, just comes from my bank account. They're a nightmare tho, cos they assured me it was one of their's 75th birthdays earlier this year, so I went through all the hassle of trying to sort out a free licence for them, only for them to suddenly remember they weren't 75 after all.... grrrrrr!! And they shout at each other all the time cos they're deaf... And leave the door open with the heating on.... aargh!! Still, could be worse, at least they pay up!!

tbs624

Xeena - have quoted bits form all your posts in one as it's easier to respond that way.

You really need to get proper legal advice from a solicitor who has specific LL& T experience, rather than relying on forum posts from any of us on here.

xeena wrote: »

They've been there just over a year now, came in after holiday season last year. I said at the time that I'd have to sort out an AST if they were staying and they were fine with that, but I had an illness in the family then and never got round to sorting it out.

It’s clear that it’s not a Holiday Let at a far earlier stage than after a year has passed. You don’t want to be in the situation where you are deemed to be offering a “sham” arrangement to bypass the protection afforded to tenants under the Housing Acts.

xeena wrote: »

…… That's a bit of a relief for me - I thought I'd heard a couple of years back (when ASTAs were fresh in) that tenancies were ASTAs unless stated otherwise, but I really wasn't sure.

ASTs were brought in way back in 1988, so definitely not "fresh in a couple of years back"

xeena wrote: »

…… I will find an ASTA on the web and sort it out

Don’t - really, don’t. Anyone who starts off from the very beginning with an AST plucked from the net is making enough of an error, but when you have occupiers already in place that would be the worst possible thing to do, especially when you don’t seem to have much of an understanding of LL&T law. Many of the AST agreements available on the net are poorly written by unqualified people, often containing cut and paste terms that are contrary to the law: the terms are unlikely to stand up in a court. Avoid using these freebies - a proper tenancy agreement is vital.

xeena wrote: »

…… Oh, and Council Tax is the one utility they are responsible for - as they get it free - lol! Water, leccy, TV, phone - I sort.

and yet in the previous post you said

xeena wrote: »

T.. they don't want the hassle of sorting utilities and stuff out........ I sort the utilities out and add it onto their rent. .

These are all issues that you need to get clarified now for both your own and their sakes, and it would help you if you join up to one of the national LL associations so that you can keep fully up to date with all your legal obligations as a LL (& there are many of them) . You should have specific LL insurances in place and, if the property is subject to a mortgage, appropriate lender consent. You should also read up on tenancy deposit regs Your LL association membership fee can be set against rental income for tax purposes, and you will qualify for discounts on insurance.They can also give you advice on your tax situation.

Do get qualified advice & a proper agreement in place asap - it will work out cheaper in the long run than trying to unravel a self-made mess and it will protect you, your property and your tenants.

speedtwin

What you now have in place is a verbal AST unless stated otherwise. I would sugest you get them to sign a ast asap and set it up so the rent is paid and due pcm. The reason being if you ever have to give notice via a section 21 and or 8, it is a lot easier and more straightforward to do. A lot of landlords get the dates wrong and therefore struck out of court because the original contract was set up either weekly, fornigthly, 4 weekly etc and the dates entered incorrectly on the served notices.

Once done if you have a unoffical agrangement to accept the rent 2 weekly it shouldnt be a problem but keep a payment ledger.

If you go to a arla agent in the high st they should be able to set you up with the correct contract and advise on deposits (have you taken one??)
Should be able to get one for about 25-50 quid

xeena

Yikes TBS, that sounds flipping complex

Just to clarify a couple of points, we've never intended to try to bypass any protection, I just don't want them gaining an MORE rights than they would under an AST.

My mistake about ASTAs. As you've pointed out, I don't know too much about LL&T. It could have been that with more people trying to buy to let a couple of years ago, that's why I heard it being mentioned.

I don't get your point about the utilities - I'm responsible for everything I can be responsible for (paying the TV licence, water, leccy, phone), but they get free Council Tax, so I don't need to sort that out for them. I don't think they have the nouse to deal with bills and I don't want any black marks going against my address, so I pay it, and add £130/month to their basic rent to cover the direct debits.

I don't have any deposit, the insurance co is aware of them, and so is the mortgage.

I'm a bit disappointed at the prospect of having to sort this out through a solicitor - I honestly thought it would be a lot more straightforward for that. Nevertheless, I do really appreciate your POV and I will do my best to look into and understand all the things which I should probably already know...

xeena

Speedtwin - thank you very much for your advice - much appreciated