British culture of owning property??

puddy

I often read on here (and see on telly and in papers) that one of the 'problems' in this country with regard to house prices is that we're all obsessed about owning property and that other european countries dont have this 'problem' because they are happier to rent and have different rental legislation which is more favourable to the tenant, hence more tenants.

however, what confuses me (without going into the argument of should we shouldnt we rent) is that, surely in order for there to be tenants aplenty in france, spain or italy SOMEONE has to be the owner of those properties in order to be the landlord?
therefore, there are just as many owners per property, its not like NO ONE owns those properties, they just choose to let them out rather than live in them themselves.
it also stands to reason that the owners, therefore, must be buy to letters, which are criticised a lot on here, and own multiple properties.

for what its worth, im not a landlord and i dont rent because i choose not to, im lucky in that way that i have the choice, but im always struck by what seems to be such an onslaught of criticism for the desire to own the home you live in, rather than rent the home you live in. the comparison with europe is always made, that there isnt such a strong desire, but its spoken of in terms of 'few people' owning homes, without the acknowledgement that of course people own homes, they just rent them out rather than live in them themselves

if that make sense....

PasturesNew

My friend in the US rents a flat. Over there they have a Rent Control system, which works based on the rent you paid when you first moved in - your individual rent never increases more than X%, so if you don't move out it ends up dirt cheap; my friend's rent is peanuts and he lives in a city. He lives in a block with a live-in maintenance man/janitor to whom he reports all issues and they're sorted out. Heating is provided from a communal boiler and is included in the rent.

His landlord is not an individual, people abroad seem to rent flats in blocks where the entire blocks are owned by companies. Rents are quite affordable, things are fixed, life is sweet.

Not like here where it's a random patchwork of landlords and arrangements.

My friend never complains of bad neighbours, even though the area he lives in is not a good area to be in. He never speaks of any anti social behaviour either in his block, his road, his neighbourhood or his journeys to/from work each day. Even though I know he lives in a rough neighbourhood where there's knife and gun crime - it doesn't come into his building, where he has genuine quiet enjoyment. He knows he can end his days there if he wants. No landlord will be deciding to double his rent or sell it off from under him.

I am in daily contact, for hours, with this person and have been for about 7 years now, so I'd know if in any of that time he had any troubles or nuisance at all. And he's not had ... and he's quite intolerant so I would have heard.

barnaby-bear

jenner wrote: »

it also stands to reason that the owners, therefore, must be buy to letters, which are criticised a lot on here, and own multiple properties.
.

Places like Switzerland/Germany a lot is owned by investment companies who look for long term stable low but reliable yield - banks, pension funds etc...

puddy

fair enough, but one of the problems that people would complain about in this country in terms of rent regulation is 'nanny state this, nanny state that'. for all the complaints about the credit crunch and that ther wasnt enough regulation of the banking industry, the minute any regulation or legislation is suggested for things like finances, the whole country starts moaning that 'those who work hard are penalised' etc etc.

PasturesNew

Rents in most places in the UK are a huge proportion of your takehome pay, especially for the single. If we had affordable places to rent that we could stay in for life we'd be happier.

There's no sense of "home" as your dwelling is not in your control. And where you live impacts on whether you can get to work, how much that costs you to do and what services/amenities you have access to.

If you have a council house or you own your own home you can feel settled. Private rentals do not give this feeling of being settled, being able to stay in a community and be part of it and being secure.

puddy

totally agree and that is why people (like me) are not comfortable with renting, but any talk of regulation and you'll have the middle classes up in arms about how the people that work hard are the ones who are penalised etc etc, whereas in europe, people accept a much higher standard of government intervention and taxation. these same people are the ones that have tantrums and 'threaten' to leave the UK and go and live in spain or somewhere. I always think, yeah go on then and find out how much 'easier' it is!!

Gingernutmeg

Renting, in this country, is not a viable long-term option in the way it is in many other countries - if you want long term stability and you're not able to get council housing, then your only option is to buy. Speaking from my own experience as a tenant, I've moved four times in the last three years, each time because rents got too high or because I could no longer put up with the lack of maintenance, or because the property was sold (shame landlords and letting agents aren't compelled to tell you that the promised 'long-term' tenancy actually means 'for as long as it takes me to sell'). OH and I have also been evicted from a house because, after nine months of asking for some pretty serious maintenance issues to be addressed, we went to the council. A week after we did that we were served a section 21 notice and we had to get out.

I'm proud to say that I've never lost a penny from a deposit (and I've even been offered cleaning work by an inventory clerk lol), but I think I've had to fight at the end of every tenancy to get my money back. I'm sick to death of renting and I'm saving as hard as I can so that one day I can buy. I'm sick of constantly having to move, and having to pay out thousands of pounds each time I move (in deposits, general moving costs, time off to look for places to live etc etc ...) I'm sick of landlords who don't care about their properties, and letting agents who know beggar all about their jobs and who can get away with lying constantly. The thought of having to spend the next ten or twenty years doing this fills me with dread, and regardless of the financial climate, as soon as I can buy a home I will. If I could have the option to rent somewhere for four or five years at a reasonable rent that would be an absolute dream - six months is nothing, I'm not even allowed to rent my phone line for that short a time ...

rizla01

Hi Jenner.

I take on all of your points.

The ONLY ones that seem to complain about BTL'ers are the ones that can't afford to be.

Just jealousy.

Remember 'Empty cans make the most noise', so they will appear to be in the majority.

Gingernutmeg

I have absolutely no problem with the landlords who treat it like a business, who look after their properties and who adhere to the regulations surrounding what they do. Landlords like that can own as many properties as they like and you won't hear a peep from me about it - it's a business, and if they're making a profit from running their business well then good for them. I do have a big problem with bad landlords, and sadly there are a lot of them about. I have a big problem with landlords who don't maintain their properties, who treat their tenants badly and who are making a profit through failing to adhere to regulations and ultimately putting people's lives at risk. I also have a problem with people who are landlords and who don't take it seriously (as in, 'oh, I'm just renting my house/flat out until the markets get better, so I don't think I need to bother with x law, or y regulation'), just as I have a problem with anyone who runs a business and who doesn't take the regulation relating to that area seriously (my background is in catering, you've never seen ranting unless you've seen me watching one of those 'undercover in a kitchen' programmes, I literally foam at the mouth ...)

And just to note, I have a problem with bad tenants too and I fully accept that there are a lot of bad tenants about. Ultimately that reflects on me and affects my 'rental experience', and means that I'm viewed with suspicion every time I try to rent a property. So I'm not a hypocrite (at least, I hope not)

CLAPTON

the basic problem in the UK is the shortgage of houses in relation to the population.

except for holland, european counties have a much lower density of population than the UK.

and we have so many restrictions on building more houses.
henced house price inflation

so its completely rational to buy a house as soon as possible.

if I were buying to day there is absolutely no way i could afford to buy my house... true of loads of people.

so renting is seen as only a short term expedient and so commercial landlords aren't in general interested

dag_2

PasturesNew says:

Rents in most places in the UK are a huge proportion of your takehome pay, especially for the single. If we had affordable places to rent that we could stay in for life we'd be happier.

That may well be true, but you're overlooking the fact that mortgage interest for someone with no deposit is an even bigger proportion of your take home pay. Indeed, with interest rates being what they are right now, even if you don't need a mortgage and can pay cash, you'd still generally be better off sticking the money in a high-interest savings account, and using your after-tax net interest to pay your rent (and keep the difference).

The idea that owning a property is cheaper than renting is a total myth. It may well have been true in the past, but it's certainly not true now.

Rising house prices have been something of a self-fulfilling prophesy. The reason why UK people aspire to owning a house is because they think they will make money out of it, because it will keep on rising in value. And this desire to make money out of a house is the very thing that drives property prices up into a bubble, even when the fundamental economics (ie, housing stock supply and population demand) don't support it.

There's no sense of "home" as your dwelling is not in your control. And where you live impacts on whether you can get to work, how much that costs you to do and what services/amenities you have access to.

True yeah, but on the other hand, if you're only in rented accommodation, it's pretty easy to up sticks and move if you need to in order to be nearer your job. You can also up sticks and move if a massive new Tesco is built next door to you and blocks your light. You can even up sticks and move if the council tax becomes too expensive. No matter what the circumstances, you're not in the remotest bit worried about not being able to sell. And you're definitely not worried about negative equity!

I really don't see how owning your home puts you in any more control of what local services and amenities you have access to than renting does.

If you have a council house or you own your own home you can feel settled. Private rentals do not give this feeling of being settled, being able to stay in a community and be part of it and being secure.

That's a good point; areas where there are a lot of private lets do tend to have a higher turnover than areas where there are a lot of owner occupation.

But I don't think that means that private tenants can't be part of a community. I'm a private tenant, and I'm involved in lots of local stuff! I don't think my landlord is likely to evict me any time soon, but even if he did, I'm sure I could find another reasonably affordable space locally.

Okay to be fair I wouldn't mind buying a place too. But I absolutely won't touch leasehold, because I've heard too many scare stories; it's got to be either freehold or commonhold. Also, I'm not going to pay over the odds for a house in the hope that prices will go up in the future; I'll only pay as much as I can get a mortgage for whose interest won't be more than the rent I'd have to pay; and even then, I think I'd try to haggle it down a bit anyway.

Another difference between the UK and other countries is that the UK's electorate consists of a majority of owner-occupiers, which many other countries don't have. As a result, there is a political incentive to perpetuate a housing bubble which doesn't exist in many other countries. In other words, a government policy which makes owner-occupiers and small-time landlords will win votes in the UK, but will lose votes in other countries.

However, as people die and leave no wills, or go bankrupt and have homes repossessed, or even buy second homes, there seems to be a gradual trend by which the housing stock is concentrating in a progressively smaller number of hands. Although owner-occupiers are still in the political majority in the UK, that political majority is not as large as it was in the immediate aftermath of the council right-to-buy sell-off.

At the moment, there are a number of tax and benefit concessions for home-ownership. For example, if you sell a house that you've lived in for more than you paid when you bought it, you don't have to pay capital gains tax. And the value of the equity of the house you own and live in is not taken into consideration when means-tested benefits are assessed. But I believe that these types of concession will only continue to exist while owner-occupiers remain in the political majority. Once owner-occupiers become a minority, I think that the tax concessions that are perceived to contribute to the bubble are likely to get voted down, in the hope of making housing more affordable for the population at large.