Gas fitting

economiser

I want to install a new gas hob but am told I have to employ a "Corgi" gas fitter to do it. This would add about 50% to the project cost.

Is there any way around this. I have completely refurbished my house over the last thirty years including rewiring, replumbing, central heating and gas services and now I am expected to employ someone at else to undo and reconnect a single gas union at vast expense. I don't question the cost to the fitter as obviously it is a call out to him even though it is a very simple five minute job.

We want to keep a gas hob but I am not being held to ransom. Do I have to stick with the old unit? Or go electric I suppose.

bruce2110

i know you think it is unfair that you should pay someone to complete ths type of work for you, but you must understand that 'we' as corgi registered plumbing and heating engineers are trained to carry out certain checks that ensure the saftey of all end users of any gas appliances so yes, i would recommend that you engage the services of a compitent corgi registered engineer!

you could always shop around and get quotes to see who would be the cheapest in your local area??!!


f.y.i

gas saftey regulations state that:

part 3(1) - no person shall carry out any work in relatoin to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless competent to do so

ffym

If you want to install an electric hob, the "regulations" say that you should employ a "competent person" to do this also!
On the one hand you have "nanny state" on the other dangerous cowboys. How good are you at Risk Assessment?

economiser

I know Corgi training courses are very comprehensive and thorough but not necessary for simple domestic jobs like changing an appliance. Corgi are onto a nice little number with these expensive courses and the end user ends up paying through the nose. There needs to be a simple test for people like kitchen fitters and DIYers to demonstrate competence at simple jobs.

On the electrical side there is some leeway in the regulations on fitting spur circuits, replacement outlets and fittings for example and something similar could be done for gas.

I agree ffym that the risk issue is difficult but if you make rules that put costs up too high then those who are not competent will try their luck and the risk of problems can actually increase There should be a sensible balance.

It looks as though we will just muddle through with what we have.

Nile

At the top of this board is a warning notice:


Announcement: Warning! Always use a professional for gas maintenance and complex electrical repairs. Being safe is more important than MoneySaving.
10-02-2005 MSE Andrea (Official Administrator)

moneysavingplumber

Changing a gas hob will usually involve altering pipe work as these usually have rigid connections, and in order to comply with gas safety regulations a gas valve and pressure testing point will have to be installed on the inlet. In order to do this, meter control 'let-by' and then a system tightness test will need to be carried out (before and after installation), and the standing and working pressures and gas rate of the appliance will need to be checked. The supply will have to be purged correctly and all appliances in the property recommisioned and visually checked to ensure safe operation. There are also issues such as operational clearances from combustible surfaces to be considered. On larger range hobs and cookers ventilation can even become an issue often overlooked.

Overall not so simple after all, which is why you should use a Corgi gas engineer. If you do it yourself and make a mistake you will put lives at risk and could even be jailed as a result. I've been to many jobs over the years where non-Corgi and 'used to be Corgi but hasn't recently kept it up' people have worked and have more often than not found dangerous situations resulting directly from the person not carrying out procedures correctly.

To be fair, it is the colleges that are onto the nice earner as far as the training courses are concerned, you won't find a Corgi gas fitter that disagrees with that. The system leaves alot to be desired and I don't think anybody is one hundred per cent happy with how it is run, but I think it's a shame you feel 'held to ransom' over it, although I understand your disappointment as you are used to having a go at things yourself.

Changing a hob, if the job is simple, shouldn't really cost anymore than around £60 so I would get a few quotes, find someone you trust at the right price, and just get it swapped over. If you need to adjust the worktop, get the quote for disconnecting and capping so that you can get on, then for reconnecting once you have cut the new one in.

Corgi actually charge about £180 per year for renewal registrations per operative. Refresher college ACS courses and assessments cost anything from £500 upwards every five years.

Mr_Proctalgia

All the above is taken in good faith and it is obviously good sense, however when you go to places like B and Q you can buy manometers, restrictor elbows, leak detector fluid, boilers, consumer units, henley blocks, even the ODPM says that DIY gas is not illegal. I have sympathy for the pro,s and the DIY brigade, my son was recently quoted £248 to shift a gas bayonet 3 feet!! Hence that was one corgi that wasn't going to get a bite!

I read several other sites, you pro,s will know the ones! - The ARGI argue, the Corgi's whine, the sparks do not seem to know their earths from their EPB's, even reading the stuff on the site that writes BS 7671 there are always arguments
, in fact since Part Pee the whole artisan trade seems to be in a state of confusion
, if you visit the ECN site the Yanks are arguing about their codes (and they are supposed to be inviolate).

I guess that part of the problem is that so much information is available on the net now, and lets face it most modern gear is so well set up that it will just work anyway, when was the last time that you were short of pressure at a fitted appliance, when was the last time you had to completely re-install a gas carcass? Its the same with the leccy, I cannot for love nor money get my REC to give me a TNCS (PME) apparently the cables are shot so I'm having to TT it.


The truth is that if you are COMPETENT and careful a DIYER there is every chance you will do as good or better job than a pro, time is on your side, and generally you will be more careful. I'm sure the pro's will agree that they will have seem awful work from both sides?? As a finishing point, think about this, any manufacturers instructions superceed the regs anyway, and why do they provide such comprehive fitting instructions with whatever it is you buy anyway?

I realise that this is an emotive subject but so long as I have to pay a pro as much a day as I make in a week then it will be DIY for me too.

(Ex Telecomms - Ex Cable jointer ((Paper and Lead)) I also legally fitted LPG in my van)

moneysavingplumber

Mr_Proctalgia wrote:

, even the ODPM says that DIY gas is not illegal.

There is no specific law that declares it illegal but...

Mr_Proctalgia wrote:

The truth is that if you are COMPETENT and careful a DIYER there is every chance you will do as good or better job than a pro, time is on your side, and generally you will be more careful.

...the law states you must be competent, and currently, the only tested and legally accepted definition of the term 'competent' is to be Corgi registered. DIY people are less likely to spot potential problems and dangers and are less likely to take the correct action if they do. During the course of carrying out work there are additional ways in which somebody, Corgi registered or not, can breach the gas safety regulations, and therefore leave themselves liable to prosecution, especially if things go wrong. For example, how many fitters have in the past turned the gas off at the meter, cut the gas pipe and then popped out to get a fitting they were short of leaving an open end on the gas supply? You could be prosecuted for that.

Mr_Proctalgia wrote:

and lets face it most modern gear is so well set up that it will just work anyway, when was the last time that you were short of pressure at a fitted appliance, when was the last time you had to completely re-install a gas carcass?

Standing and working pressure have little to do with the manufacture of the appliance, gas rate and burner pressure tests are stipulated as mandatory commissioning tests to check the appliance is burning the correct amount of gas.

Twice in the last year working pressure tests I have taken at the appliances showing less than 15 mbar at the appliance and 16 mbar at the meter (as opposed to required minimums of 20 and 21 respectively) have resulted, ultimately, in Transco replacing gas mains into my customers' properties, as I had identified a blockage in one case and and a grossly undersized main in another. I have also had to re-carcass complete gas systems as a result of failed intial tightness tests where my initial intention may have been to simply disconnect an unwanted appliance, and the initial test resulted in identifying major leaks in the pipe work buried in the screed/concrete.

Unregistered people are less likely to take action when they suspect they may have uncovered a problem for fear that action may be taken against them as a result.

Mr_Proctalgia wrote:

As a finishing point, think about this, any manufacturers instructions superceed the regs anyway, and why do they provide such comprehive fitting instructions with whatever it is you buy anyway?

Almost all manufacturers now stipulate that only Corgi registered persons install their appliances, and their technical advisors will not speak to you if you are not.

Mr_Proctalgia wrote:

I realise that this is an emotive subject but so long as I have to pay a pro as much a day as I make in a week then it will be DIY for me too.

Personally I don't think of it as emotive, but I think it is common sense. I don't agree with Corgi fitters ripping people off any more than you do, and it's pretty competitive out there. Most decent, honest plumbers (yes I know someone's bound to say that's a contradiction in terms :snow_laug ) in the South East don't charge more than £200 per day, which is reasonable considering it includes many overheads. I have actually found in my experience that it is the unregistered, unqualified 'multi-trades' that charge more, as alot of people are prepared to pay someone that will do 'everything' as some can't be bothered to deal with more than one person.

I'm not having a go at you personally Mr Proctalgia, but I think for every argument you have made in favour of doing DIY gas work there is a far more compelling counter argument and am trying to respectfully highlight these.

Mr_Proctalgia

Actually Pro Plumber I DO agree with you on almost all of what you say, however I for one could not afford to pay anyone £200 per day out of my net wages for anything like more than a few hours work. I have been self employed for a while and do understand the overheads. Let me phrase it this way, if you employed a spark at £200 per day how would you feel? How many times have you read on a forum about someone bragging that they have blagged X amount for so much work?
What I think is the big saving grace about gas work is that it tends to be fairly permanent, people tend to change their electrics far more often nowadays, just hope that the fashion for having this years latest oven etc doesn't catch on.

People get ripped off all the time, it can happen in the garage, it definately happens with some designer goods, some people like to pay extra for stuff as they think it makes them look good. I think the Corgi idea was good at its inception but now there are to many unregistered people around, some competion would be good - like being a RGI???

I also read that plumbers are now refusing to fit boilers in some cases but "fit" them on supply only basis as they cannot legally wire them up, the whole situation is crazy. I just hope that the situation that occured in Australia doesn't happen here, if you weren't aware it was made illegal to even buy a plug or bulb holder in Aus and NZ, what happened? The number of death and injuries from elctrical shock went up, no one could afford the trades so they wired everything on extension leads. Over in NZ they relented and allowed limited DIY and their injury and death rate fell again.

Anyway to get back to the OP question which I will be general about because I know the RGI's disagree about part of it too, some instructions say you can use a flexi, some say use rigid, it is argued that if the hob is not above an oven etc and why are freestanding units on flexi etc, you get the drift, 70C 105C it is all getting talked about. You know what I mean? damned if you do and damned if you don't. What I think is that a short run of thinner malleable with a pigtail pulled in the middle is the best of both worlds unless the hob is built like a bessemer converter.

Thanks for your interesting post.

moneysavingplumber

Mr_Proctalgia wrote:

Actually Pro Plumber I DO agree with you on almost all of what you say, however I for one could not afford to pay anyone £200 per day out of my net wages for anything like more than a few hours work. I have been self employed for a while and do understand the overheads. Let me phrase it this way, if you employed a spark at £200 per day how would you feel?

I understand. I do employ an electrician at that rate and of course it hurts.
Alot of people honestly can't afford to employ decent tradespeople, and I honestly don't know what the answer is to that. I price for a quality job and often I know that I'm going to lose out on price the moment I walk into a house, which I don't mind but I'm always saddened when I know that the quality of the work has been compromised and that there's a possibility that somebody has been really ripped off, despite maybe actually paying a few hundred quid less than what I would have charged. However, I don't think Corgi are to blame. The new building regs have hoisted the price of boiler changes quite dramatically, so people are far more suggestible to the dramatically lower prices of those ignoring them.

Alot of my customers that are younger or not on considerable incomes often take out loans or remortgage in order to get major home improvement work done, many couldn't afford it if they tried to budget it into their usual expenses.

economiser

My original complaint was not about being ripped off by Corgi fitters but by regulators who make draconian rules.

I am delighted and relieved to hear from Mr Proctalgia and moneysavingplumber that DIY gas fitting is not illegal. As a pensioner I simply could not afford to pay someone else between £50 and £100 (of which the government will take a share directly and the Corgi organisation a share indirectly) to do such a simple pipe fitting job. A job like this simply does not require the expertise and knowledge of a fully trained Corgi fitter.

I am certainly not going to take any risks with my own safety. I am more than competent and able to fit a new gas hob myself. Indeed I have done a lot of gas fitting in the past going back to the days when it was all done in screwed iron pipe. In fact I have more confidence in my own work than I would have of a hired fitter, being retired time is on my side and I can be very careful and thorough in what I do, indeed a take pleasure in doing a good job.

Thanks to you all for your posts.