What is my legal position

AlwaysSomething

A group of eight of us have been working for a wealthy gentleman - let's call him John. For the last 12 months we have worked (without a contract - handshake basis) and been paid monthly.
Now the work-site has changed hands (against John's wishes), and another group is coming in to take over the work. We have asked John for the salary he owes us for the work we did over the last six weeks, but he keeps stalling, and we don't think he will ever pay up. We are in possession of some special tools that we were using to do the work. The new contractors have offered to pay us £20,000 for them, but if we don't sell by the end of the week, they will go elsewhere to buy new, and John's tools would then be almost worthless to anyone else. We have asked John for permission to sell the tools, but again he hasn't given us an answer. We are of a mind to sell the tools, as the money would be about right to pay everyone's salary. Where do we stand legally?
Thanks for your help

uktyler

If you sell the tools you can be done for theft.
The other company can be done for receiving stolen goods.

However I think you know this already.

Send John a letter giving him 14 days to pay before you take legal action.

Selling things that don't belong to you is going to get you in trouble.

zzzLazyDaisy

More information is needed.

Are you an employee, or a contractor?

If you are an employee, your position is protected by TUPE. When a business is taken over as a going concern, the new employer steps into the shoes of the old employer, under TUPE. This means that the new employer should ensure that he with-holds the outstanding wages, as once the take-over has gone through, any claim for unpaid wages will lie against the new employer.

If John trading as a limited company, then it is the company that owes the money and the change of ownership does not affect this.

It is possible to hold a lien over the tools, in lieu of the debt, but you need to be certain who owes the money (John on his personal capacity, or the company if that is the case), and who owns the tools (they may be leased, or the subject of an HP agreement, or the bank may have a prior claim on them by way of an indemnity). However, as has already been stated, if you simply sell what does not belong to you, that is theft.

Edit - having re-read you original post, in the circumstances that you describe, it is highly likely that that you would be classed as employees, regardless of the fact that you have no contract.

AlwaysSomething

We have a verbal contract only, but it contains no detail. We do work, we get salary - that's all it says. Some job titles, but no statement of duties.
I'm trying not to describe our exact case for everyone on the internet, but I'm trying to give analogies that exactly represent the situation. Let's try this one:
We were working on John's allotment. Now the council has taken John's allotment, and given it to someone else. I don't think the new allotment holder has a duty to employ us to work on it does he? There is a greenhouse on the allotment, which the new holder is willing to buy, but it's only a few panes of glass if we don't sell it to the new holder. If we don't sell it, John could get charged rent for leaving it there, or be charged for its removal. One of our group is designated as the 'manager' and does have authority to run the business day to day - again his duties are not written down. It could be argued that he should turn the greenhouse into cash, since that is also in John's best interest. Do we have the right to hold on to the greenhouse until we get paid. If we sell the greenhouse, do we have the right to hold on to the proceeds until we get paid?
Thanks

pinkshoes

AlwaysSomething wrote: »

We have a verbal contract only, but it contains no detail. We do work, we get salary - that's all it says. Some job titles, but no statement of duties.

Were you paying tax and NI on this money earned, or was it cash in hand? 8 guys working on one rich man's allotment sounds rather odd!!

AlwaysSomething wrote: »

It could be argued that he should turn the greenhouse into cash, since that is also in John's best interest. Do we have the right to hold on to the greenhouse until we get paid. If we sell the greenhouse, do we have the right to hold on to the proceeds until we get paid?
Thanks

It may be in John's best interest, but it's not yours to sell. It's HIS decision. Personally I'd go see him, and make sure that he's 100% clear that if he doesn't sell it in the 7 days, he loses out on £20k. How much are these wages that he owes?

AlwaysSomething

It's an analogy. If it was 8 guys working in a rented shop, would that be easier for you? The manager buys and sells stock all the time, even though it belongs to someone else. Only difference with the tools is that we would normally consult John before making a 20k sale.
I can't speak for the rest of the guys, but I pay my taxes - I prepare simple accounts as a sole trader. The pay is cheque in hand.

dreamypuma

AlwaysSomething wrote: »

We have a verbal contract only, but it contains no detail. We do work, we get salary - that's all it says. Some job titles, but no statement of duties.
I'm trying not to describe our exact case for everyone on the internet, but I'm trying to give analogies that exactly represent the situation. Let's try this one:
We were working on John's allotment. Now the council has taken John's allotment, and given it to someone else. I don't think the new allotment holder has a duty to employ us to work on it does he? There is a greenhouse on the allotment, which the new holder is willing to buy, but it's only a few panes of glass if we don't sell it to the new holder. If we don't sell it, John could get charged rent for leaving it there, or be charged for its removal. One of our group is designated as the 'manager' and does have authority to run the business day to day - again his duties are not written down. It could be argued that he should turn the greenhouse into cash, since that is also in John's best interest. Do we have the right to hold on to the greenhouse until we get paid. If we sell the greenhouse, do we have the right to hold on to the proceeds until we get paid?
Thanks

Are you a bank robber?

omen666

uktyler wrote: »

If you sell the tools you can be done for theft.
The other company can be done for receiving stolen goods.

However I think you know this already.

Send John a letter giving him 14 days to pay before you take legal action.

Selling things that don't belong to you is going to get you in trouble.

Actually it is not. You would be arrested for theft intially but if it went to court there is a case of Regina V ( Just searching for it now) that allows like for like

Edit: Cannot find the case law but know it exists as I was studying at the time and in the Crown Court. Still would not advise it though

Smashing

You're not working for MI5 !!!!!!, if you want some decent advice then you need to elaborate on the cicumstances and stop with the analogies.

Halloway

Smashing wrote: »

You're not working for MI5 !!!!!!, if you want some decent advice then you need to elaborate on the cicumstances and stop with the analogies.

...and it's probably not a good idea to seek legal advice from a bunch of mongs like us.

Brooker_Dave

Halloway wrote: »

...and it's probably not a good idea to seek legal advice from a bunch of mongs like us.

Respect......