Can you claim housing benefit if renting from a relative?

SABJ

about 8yrs ago i was renting a house off my dad for about 6mths it was all paid for but i herd a few years back they had stopped you renting to family not sure if its everywhere or one of them roumers that get passed around, you would be best ringing benifits and asking them it sounds like you were working and on maternity ?? does this mean you dont get benifits ? its different for everyones different circumstances so i would give them a quick ring

good luck hope it works out for you

tbs624

reggie1066 wrote: »

A close relative bought a house for my child and I to live in when we moved out of London nearly five years ago. He lives elsewhere. The plan was that I would contribute what I could towards the mortgage, and that would be deemed 'rent', so I paid what I could which wasn't a great deal.

Now my relative's business has gone downhill in the recession, and he can no longer afford to pay the mortgages on both my home and his own without me paying a proper rent. Otherwise he's going to have to rent it to somebody else - he bitterly regrets this but has no choice. I've therefore applied for HB, but I'm told that because up to now I've had no formal tenancy agreement, and no proof of rent paid, any formal arrangement I enter into with my relative now in order to obtain HB will be viewed as a 'Contrived Tenancy'.

I really don't want to lose my home. It's the first "home of our own" that my child and I have ever had. It was bought for us by my relative exactly for that reason. Now we're told we'll have to move elsewhere because I can't afford the very reasonable rent my relative plans to charge, and instead I'll be claiming HB to pay an inflated rent belonging to a commercial landlord to live in a home that's not 'our own'. I've decorated my house, I've put up shelves, made repairs, built a whole garden wall, and I've landscaped the garden with my own bare hands... I always thought we'd be here for years to come. It never occurred to me that all for the lack of a formal agreement I wouldn't be able to fall back on HB if the crunch came. It's not as if I don't work. I do, but even if I worked extra hours in order to earn more, my additional income would simply be deducted from my Tax Credits, so I still wouldn't be able to afford to pay any more rent without claiming HB.

Can somebody please advise me how I should proceed. I so wish I hadn't told the HB authorities that I haven't had a formal rental agreement in place before now. It seems to make all the difference and now I'm going to lose my home.
Thank you.

Not declaring material facts when claiming HBor LHA leaves you open to a fraud charge plus an order for repayment of benefit.

If a tenancy has not been on a proper commercial basis & involves a close relative but then you try to claim for HB/LHA it *will* be held to be a contrived tenancy, ie one designed to take advantage of the HB system.

What contribution is there from the child's father that could perhaps help with your housing costs? Or is the "close relative" a former partner who is also father of the child?

Is the property big enough for you to be able to get a lodger in to help with the new rent?

Have you actually looked at any other properties in the area?

Have you sought advice from the CAB or a law centre adviser?

reggie1066

First time I've ever felt worse rather than better after having posted a problem on a forum. Thanks PoppySarah or SarahPoppy, whoever you are. Don't ever work in any of the 'caring professions' will you. I suspect you would do more harm than good with your caring advice.

Which bit of contrived tenancy confuses you?
The bit of 'contrived tenancy' I've got trouble with is what's wrong with my relative 'contriving' to secure a home for my child and I that was 'ours' to make improvements to, decorate, carpet and furnish to our own preference (all second-hand, free or budget brand, before you make any snide remarks) and make into our own home. Everything's to my own taste, not according to the taste and budget of some landlord who doesn't care what ugly, uncomfortable furniture is imposed upon me or what garish nylon cut-price carpet with swirls of purple and brown he lays down. I've worked on the house and tended the garden because i expected to live here for some years and was investing in and loving what felt like a home of my own. You don't do that when your contract may not be renewed at any time. Rent would have to be paid on this house or any other I live in, whether by myself or by HB. In this way, any tenancy could be regarded as 'contrived' if at some point HB is applied for.

Asking for a higher level of rent as HB when you've previously had a "family" rate is abuse of the system. Find somewhere else to live to avoid any risk of being accused of fraud.
My relative and I agreed I would pay in the region of £100 per week when I moved in to the house nearly five years ago. Because that was half my income each week, it was too much to afford. I could barely pay him £20. It wasn't the plan, but I ended up living here almost rent-free for as long as my relative could afford it, and now he can't - why do you have to see something dirty in that? Isn't that what benefits is meant to be about, claiming when an individual has a genuine need and not just because they can? Where's the abuse in claiming HB now that I'll have to move if I can't pay the rent, which I can't? Next, the whole point is I don't want to live elsewhere - this is a beloved and cherished home that I have created for myself and my son and that was bought specifically so that we could love and cherish it in this way. That's why I went on the forum to ask for advice. Finally, I don't understand the implication that I have committed any fraud? What exactly have I done that's fraudulent? I would be grateful to know.

Also if his business is going down the pan how long before he'd have to sell anyway?
Again, such a sympathetic attitude!. If he wasn't carrying this second mortgage my relative would be enjoying a far better lifestyle, and far from worrying about the work drying up he would be packing his bags to enjoy a few years of travel abroad until things pick up again, instead of worrying about keeping myself and my child housed. Fortunately, the house is extremely lettable, so he won't be forced to sell, which of course would be at a loss at this time anyway. He is not amassing a property empire based upon the expectation of huge handouts to me from HB, you see, and if he was he wouldn't be a very good businessman because after all this time he's lost £20,000 of rent income and should have chucked me out by now. But he did buy the property for me to live in and is devastated that he is now obliged to rent it out to others instead. At least once he gets a rental income from it, though, he can relax and enjoy that lifestyle I mentioned just now!

How close a relative? Father of the child?
What a very nasty jibe! My brother, actually - he is simply a very decent man who cares for his sister and her child and did what he could to help at the time. Perhaps you don’t have such relatives in your family?
My brother tried to help me out in a way that was manageable within his means. If he'd known that by trying to give me a break he was in fact taking full financial responsibility for myself and my child for evermore he would have thought twice.

Neillgb wrote: »

Pray that I am not the HB guy you ask for 'help' from as what you may well end up with a conviction for benefit fraud and a nice little article in the local rag highlighting the fact!!

Sorry you have your problems but it ain't the taxpayers fault.

Neillgb, I have no beef with your warning that I might be done for benefit fraud if I take a certain route, but then you nail your own colours to the mast with your last sentence. 'It ain't the taxpayers fault' suggests that I should not be entitled to HB at all, regardless of where I live, because I'm a sponger, or at least I'm in the wrong for wanting to claim HB to live in a pleasant home with a reasonable rent that feels almost like I have a right to be there, rather than in a slum dwelling in a high rise block which I'd probably have to claim even more HB for!

I hope you're not genuinely an HB guy as you're the stereotypical benefits officer that gives the rest of 'em a bad name and makes a life of living on low income that much more miserable because you treat all claimants as if they're criminals and the scum of the earth. I've done nothing illegal, and don't intend to. I have every right to claim HB for living in the property of a relative, as you would know if you looked the matter up. However, because I didn't go about setting it all up properly, and claiming HB four and half years ago when I would have been allowed to, my home is now going to become unaffordable because it's too late to claim HB now. Does that make me a criminal? I'm a tax payer too, and my circumstances make me very grateful for our benefits system. That doesn't mean I'm out to exploit it! Again, I'm turning to it now that I'm in need, not just because I can!

Finally, thanks for your posting TBS64. I don't take umbrage with your intimation that the close relative is actually the father, because you suggested it tentatively rather than unpleasantly, and the rest of your advice was constructive and helpful.
No, dad is not providing any support, and it's a long story but actually he's not required to by the CSA. The rest of your questions I think are mostly answered above.

Thanks to everybody else who offered sympathetic and constructive advice and I would be grateful for any more. Now I've got to get into work which is, ironically, concerned with housing the homeless!

neverdespairgirl

reggie1066 wrote: »

The bit of 'contrived tenancy' I've got trouble with is what's wrong with my relative 'contriving' to secure a home for my child and I that was 'ours' to make improvements to, decorate, carpet and furnish to our own preference (all second-hand, free or budget brand, before you make any snide remarks) and make into our own home.

The contrived bit is now, not then.

It would be a contrived tenancy because you are asking HB to pay a sum that you haven't paid before.

poppysarah

"No, dad is not providing any support, and it's a long story but actually he's not required to by the CSA"

Do they say this often? If you claim HB now will the CSA get involved and make the dad pay.

sirmyser

poppysarah wrote: »

Which bit of contrived tenancy confuses you?

Asking for a higher level of rent as HB when you've previously had a "family" rate is abuse of the system. Find somewhere else to live to avoid any risk of being accused of fraud.

Also if his business is going down the pan how long before he'd have to sell anyway?

How close a relative? Father of the child?

I agree, the last thing you need in your situation is a conviction for fraud, and if you do get a guy neillgb dealing with your case then that may be the case.

Assuming that the 'close relative' is not the Father of the child....... your close relative needs to make a decision about exactly when they need to make the property commercially available for rent. It may be that they are holding back waiting to see if you can get HB, as it has been said, this is dodgy ground. It would benefit you if your close relative formally informs you in writing of the exact date they require the property to be vacant. Then you have something to work with in relation to ensuring that you and your child will have suitable accommodation when the time comes. If you haven't already then you should make an application to the local council/housing association(s) for housing, making them aware of your situation and the date that you have to vacate your current property. They will look at your situation, and prioritise you on their list for available properties.

However, they will also have to look at your present situation with a view to resolving any issues that may be relative to your need for re-housing. This would be an opportunity for you to put all of your cards on the table, and your concern in relation to being part of any contrived tenancy, hence the reason for your application. They may decide that HB could be granted on a commercial basis, however your close relative must be commited to making the property available to rent i.e. had a rent evaluation, informed the lender (if neccessary), commercial insurances etc. Check my earlier post and the one from tbs624

The fact that you have carried out work on the property will carry no weight at all, in fact you may have to declare that on any HB form that is submitted (gardening, grounds, repairs etc).

Oldernotwiser

£100 per week is a very cheap rent for a house in London; is there a particular reason why you can't afford it?

Neillgb

reggie1066 wrote: »

First time I've ever felt worse rather than better after having posted a problem on a forum. Thanks PoppySarah or SarahPoppy, whoever you are. Don't ever work in any of the 'caring professions' will you. I suspect you would do more harm than good with your caring advice.

Which bit of contrived tenancy confuses you?
The bit of 'contrived tenancy' I've got trouble with is what's wrong with my relative 'contriving' to secure a home for my child and I that was 'ours' to make improvements to, decorate, carpet and furnish to our own preference (all second-hand, free or budget brand, before you make any snide remarks) and make into our own home. Everything's to my own taste, not according to the taste and budget of some landlord who doesn't care what ugly, uncomfortable furniture is imposed upon me or what garish nylon cut-price carpet with swirls of purple and brown he lays down. I've worked on the house and tended the garden because i expected to live here for some years and was investing in and loving what felt like a home of my own. You don't do that when your contract may not be renewed at any time. Rent would have to be paid on this house or any other I live in, whether by myself or by HB. In this way, any tenancy could be regarded as 'contrived' if at some point HB is applied for.

Asking for a higher level of rent as HB when you've previously had a "family" rate is abuse of the system. Find somewhere else to live to avoid any risk of being accused of fraud.
My relative and I agreed I would pay in the region of £100 per week when I moved in to the house nearly five years ago. Because that was half my income each week, it was too much to afford. I could barely pay him £20. It wasn't the plan, but I ended up living here almost rent-free for as long as my relative could afford it, and now he can't - why do you have to see something dirty in that? Isn't that what benefits is meant to be about, claiming when an individual has a genuine need and not just because they can? Where's the abuse in claiming HB now that I'll have to move if I can't pay the rent, which I can't? Next, the whole point is I don't want to live elsewhere - this is a beloved and cherished home that I have created for myself and my son and that was bought specifically so that we could love and cherish it in this way. That's why I went on the forum to ask for advice. Finally, I don't understand the implication that I have committed any fraud? What exactly have I done that's fraudulent? I would be grateful to know.

Also if his business is going down the pan how long before he'd have to sell anyway?
Again, such a sympathetic attitude!. If he wasn't carrying this second mortgage my relative would be enjoying a far better lifestyle, and far from worrying about the work drying up he would be packing his bags to enjoy a few years of travel abroad until things pick up again, instead of worrying about keeping myself and my child housed. Fortunately, the house is extremely lettable, so he won't be forced to sell, which of course would be at a loss at this time anyway. He is not amassing a property empire based upon the expectation of huge handouts to me from HB, you see, and if he was he wouldn't be a very good businessman because after all this time he's lost £20,000 of rent income and should have chucked me out by now. But he did buy the property for me to live in and is devastated that he is now obliged to rent it out to others instead. At least once he gets a rental income from it, though, he can relax and enjoy that lifestyle I mentioned just now!

How close a relative? Father of the child?
What a very nasty jibe! My brother, actually - he is simply a very decent man who cares for his sister and her child and did what he could to help at the time. Perhaps you don’t have such relatives in your family?
My brother tried to help me out in a way that was manageable within his means. If he'd known that by trying to give me a break he was in fact taking full financial responsibility for myself and my child for evermore he would have thought twice.







Neillgb, I have no beef with your warning that I might be done for benefit fraud if I take a certain route, but then you nail your own colours to the mast with your last sentence. 'It ain't the taxpayers fault' suggests that I should not be entitled to HB at all, regardless of where I live, because I'm a sponger, or at least I'm in the wrong for wanting to claim HB to live in a pleasant home with a reasonable rent that feels almost like I have a right to be there, rather than in a slum dwelling in a high rise block which I'd probably have to claim even more HB for!

I hope you're not genuinely an HB guy as you're the stereotypical benefits officer that gives the rest of 'em a bad name and makes a life of living on low income that much more miserable because you treat all claimants as if they're criminals and the scum of the earth. I've done nothing illegal, and don't intend to. I have every right to claim HB for living in the property of a relative, as you would know if you looked the matter up. However, because I didn't go about setting it all up properly, and claiming HB four and half years ago when I would have been allowed to, my home is now going to become unaffordable because it's too late to claim HB now. Does that make me a criminal? I'm a tax payer too, and my circumstances make me very grateful for our benefits system. That doesn't mean I'm out to exploit it! Again, I'm turning to it now that I'm in need, not just because I can!

Finally, thanks for your posting TBS64. I don't take umbrage with your intimation that the close relative is actually the father, because you suggested it tentatively rather than unpleasantly, and the rest of your advice was constructive and helpful.
No, dad is not providing any support, and it's a long story but actually he's not required to by the CSA. The rest of your questions I think are mostly answered above.

Thanks to everybody else who offered sympathetic and constructive advice and I would be grateful for any more. Now I've got to get into work which is, ironically, concerned with housing the homeless!

Not suggesting you have done, or intend to, anything against the law.

The post previous to mine, not by yourself, suggested a rather underhand way of attempting to stay where you are which I consider inappropriate and dishonest.

You should receive benefits appropriate to your circumstances. And no more.

real1314

There's so much mis-information, and so many incorrect/biased conclusions in this thread it's almost impossible to know where to start.

1. Apart from the rules about the LL being a parent of a child in the tenants home, there are NO rules about relatives. None at all.

2. A Contrived tenancy is about one where it is set up to take advantage of HB/LHA, not one where a previously allowed subsidy is withdrawn (like the guy who can no longer afford to give a cheap rent).

3. The poster who thought they'd act as a fraud guy, when quoting a poster who said they'd fully explain, seems to mis-understand what fraud means.

I think a lot of the "relative" renter threads are getting responses based on some petty jealousy. There are few people who can "afford" to let a relative live rent free.
Some might live in a £150k house and have a prior £100k house and then let out the old house. Other people might have a £300k house and see their relative rent privately from another LL. Why is the former immoral if they both get HB/LHA?

oilit

Neillgb wrote: »

Pray that I am not the HB guy you ask for 'help' from as what you may well end up with a conviction for benefit fraud and a nice little article in the local rag highlighting the fact!!

Sorry you have your problems but it ain't the taxpayers fault.

What a morose comment.

You must be held up on a pedastal of how not to be a customer focused individual in your local council ...

If you read my first line in my post i stated that I dont know the rules - my comment was based upon what in the commercial world would be common sense.

As for your last comment, if it wasnt for people who need help - you wouldnt have a job - which is ultimately paid for by all taxpayers directly and indirectly (and before you start the old moan - yes you also contribute to your own salary).

Hope I didnt offend any others on this post - but I am speechless on the above...:mad: :mad: