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Why do people think landlords are greedy

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  • I don't think people who invest in rental properties are greedy. I think they're just making money. If it's profitable, good for them!

    However, I do hear an awful lot of stories about really bad landlords who never fix anything and then invent reasons to keep the deposit. That seems much more common over here than in America and I'm not sure why that is. I rented many, many properties in America and had very few problems with my landlords or getting back my deposits.
    :beer:
  • Most of them are just first time buyers who are jealous at the BTL Landlords being able to afford things they can't.

    I wouldn't worry about it, as FTB's failures in life are hardly your problem.

    Being priced out of the market thanks to people who are merely older than you and thus further along in life is quite simply unfair.
    I don't expect many/if any BTL's to see that point of view.


    BTL's are able to take the equity out of their existing home to buy further properties then doing it again and again.
    Claiming the rent against the tax of the mortgage repayments and as the market goes up higher the ability for a FTB to get on the ladder is harder and harder.

    I'm a potential FTB. I saw what was happening and couldn't do anything about it so I've stuck renting and will continue to do so.

    IMHO there are two sides to every coin.
    Professional BTL's I have no problem with. Those that look after their properties and have made sensible decisions which mean that they will weather the current storm.
    One of my friends is one and owns 3 properties in London, mainly through moving up the chain and not selling previous abodes.

    Other BTL's who do not look after the property or their tenants, treat them like an underclass and have such poor L2V across their 4-5 properties that they are hiding when the bell rings are about to get their just deserves.
    I've read comments on other forums suggesting that tennants don't pay the rent, go through the legal proceedures and string the LL out till the bank reposesses the property then make them an offer!!


    The same goes for tennants, good and bad.
    Had my circumstances been different I may well have been on the BTL ladder, however find it hard to trust complete strangers enough knowing what complete and utter scum the previous tennants in my LL's house were.
    Any sympathy towards my LL however is muted by their unwillingness to repair or look after the house and the unprofessionalism shown by their LA.


    As for the comments about renting in Europe:
    The system is skewed completely differently over here.
    In Europe rental periods are a lot longer and the tennants have MANY more rights than they do over here. It is extremely hard to kick out a good tennant or even to raise the rent on them.
    There is also an enforcable expectation to look after the property.


    But BTL's need to accept that it's not just sour grapes from FTB's.
    Many of us have simply been priced out from not being old enough to be on the ladder when the prices started going upwards.
    I could and still can afford to be on the ladder but at this moment in time it's utter madness and has been for the years I saw this period coming. My deposit is building and I should be in a good position to be rent or mortgage free in a short time frame.
    I have no regrets at all about not yet being on the ladder and choosing to rent.


    However, I reserve total and utter contempt for LA's and estate agents alike.
  • tbs624
    tbs624 Posts: 10,816 Forumite
    leviathan wrote: »
    Being priced out of the market thanks to people who are merely older than you and thus further along in life is quite simply unfair.
    Life is simply unfair.
    leviathan wrote: »
    BTL's are able to take the equity out of their existing home to buy further properties then doing it again and again.
    I think it's a case of "were" not "are" but there are always such huge generalisations made. I know people who have funded their rental properties through hard graft - forgoing expenditure that others took for granted, and taking on extra paid work. Many didn't need to rely on MEW
    leviathan wrote: »
    Claiming the rent against the tax of the mortgage repayments and as the market goes up higher the ability for a FTB to get on the ladder is harder and harder.
    No, you set the mortgage interest repayments against the gross rental income.
    leviathan wrote: »
    Professional BTL's I have no problem with. Those that look after their properties and have made sensible decisions which mean that they will weather the current storm.
    One of my friends is one and owns 3 properties in London, mainly through moving up the chain and not selling previous abodes.

    Other BTL's who do not look after the property or their tenants, treat them like an underclass and have such poor L2V across their 4-5 properties that they are hiding when the bell rings are about to get their just deserves.

    So you're muddling things a bit here - do you "hate" BTL for what it is, because you feel that it priced other folk out of the housing market or do you want to have a rant about whether a LL complies with his legal obligations? It's not just the jonny- come-lately BTLers who can be carp LLs , you know - you can have the old feller who's been " in the game" for the past 15 years but does things his own way, and teeters on the brink of what is and isn't acceptable for a good LL and you can have a BTLer who takesall his/her obligations really seriously and recognises that happy tenants take care of the property.
    leviathan wrote: »
    I've read comments on other forums suggesting that tennants don't pay the rent, go through the legal proceedures and string the LL out till the bank reposesses the property then make them an offer!!
    Yep, good suggestion (not), because that LL may just decide to drag the Tenant off for a chat at the county court and the T finds himself landed with a CCJ for failing to pay his rent. Bit of a hindrance that one, if you are looking for a mortgage or even to rent another property when the grand plan falls flat.
    leviathan wrote: »
    ..Had my circumstances been different I may well have been on the BTL ladder,
    so having had a rant about the BTL set-up you admit you would havedone so yourself if you could have.
    leviathan wrote: »
    My deposit is building and I should be in a good position to be rent or mortgage free in a short time frame.........I have no regrets at all about not yet being on the ladder and choosing to rent.
    Were you spinning ever so fast as you typed all this? We've now gone from "life's unfair" "BTL is bad", "not all BTLs are bad", "tenants can be rubbish but so are LLs", via "I would have had a crack at it meself" to "non, je ne regrette rien......" :undecided
  • tbs624 wrote: »
    Life is simply unfair.
    Often the case. Perhaps it's too naive to think people don't screw each otehr to be on top.
    A case of "I'm all right Jack" eh ?
    I think it's a case of "were" not "are" but there are always such huge generalisations made. I know people who have funded their rental properties through hard graft - forgoing expenditure that others took for granted, and taking on extra paid work. Many didn't need to rely on MEW
    Certainly there are many ways people do it. I'd suggest that they are the more cautious of the BTL's.
    So you're muddling things a bit here - do you "hate" BTL for what it is, because you feel that it priced other folk out of the housing market or do you want to have a rant about whether a LL complies with his legal obligations?
    I can forgive those who are doing it because their provision has been taken, but then there are those simily taking advantage of others.
    Keep the poor poor and those that feed off them remain rich.
    It's not just the jonny- come-lately BTLers who can be carp LLs , you know - you can have the old feller who's been " in the game" for the past 15 years but does things his own way, and teeters on the brink of what is and isn't acceptable for a good LL and you can have a BTLer who takesall his/her obligations really seriously and recognises that happy tenants take care of the property.
    Yes, and whilst I detest regulation becasue it often doesn't work I've found quite a lack of it present from this side of the fence whilst renting.
    I've had good experiences and bad however mostly bad.
    As any business ventuire, things which cost you money eat into your profits but there should be more pressure to correct things which are wrong. I don't need a new carpet every year but there is a large hole on the underside of my landing for example and if I owned the house I'd have fixed it long before now. My LL seems fit to leave it be. That's one example. there are many others.
    Yep, good suggestion (not), because that LL may just decide to drag the Tenant off for a chat at the county court and the T finds himself landed with a CCJ for failing to pay his rent. Bit of a hindrance that one, if you are looking for a mortgage or even to rent another property when the grand plan falls flat.
    Scarasm aside, you know that takes quite a while to do and certainly from reading on here I get the impression from LL's that there are plenty of get out clauses for the Tennant to start paying the rent again without penalty so long as they pay all of it, having strung the LL along for the journey.
    I'm not condoning that behaviour nor suggestion I'm going to do it !!
    so having had a rant about the BTL set-up you admit you would have done so yourself if you could have.
    Sensibly yes. But not stretching myself out to the limit and milking people for it.
    I like to have a backstop in everything financial, don't you?
    Were you spinning ever so fast as you typed all this? We've now gone from "life's unfair" "BTL is bad", "not all BTLs are bad", "tenants can be rubbish but so are LLs", via "I would have had a crack at it meself" to "non, je ne regrette rien......"
    hmmm not quite but I'm sure you can read it that way if you wished.
    Some BTL's are good and there is a need for them.
    Others (like the Wilsons for example) contribute nothing to help the property ladder other than make prices go higher, reduce housing supply and force otherwise FTB's to remain without the ability to purchase.
    I'd not like to be a good LL with a bad tennant.
    I've been a good tennant with several bad LL's.
    Which are you?
  • carolt
    carolt Posts: 8,531 Forumite
    I would argue that landlords are often disliked because of those of their number who fail to provide a professional service to their customers ie tenants such as repairs, gas safety certs etc etc, whilst at the same time (is this the cause?) despising their tenants as losers, failures, etc - see this very thread for examples!

    So in other words, they want their rent, paid on time monthly, but aren't prepared to fulfil their side of it.

    So that makes them lazy and greedy.

    Yes, obviously all landlords aren't like this, but speaking as someone whose current landlord is exactly like this, I'd say it is not uncommon. Of course, a tenant can vote with their feet, but it's not always that easy for tenants to move - moving is a very stressful experience for anyone, whether you own or rent. And once you're there, you're not going to get involved in aggro with an unprofessional landlord over every little thing, because you don't want the hassle.

    (Of course, when I move, I plan to shop my landlady to everybody going....:rolleyes:)

    And those who say you should suss out a landlord in advance as much as the tenant - this is not always possible to do, if you are renting through an agency.

    We had everything packed and the removal van ordered, when the landlady for our current place phoned us the night before we were due to move in. She mentioned in passing about 'you know you can't use the loft?' I was dumbfounded, as one of the things I'd specifically double-checked with the agent showing us round was that the loft was boarded and we could use it, as we were moving from a house with a loft full of stuff and needed to store it (family heirlooms etc).

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, she refused to budge on the loft (telling us that in her country (she's South African) people don't board lofts and it's very dangerous!), despite previous guarantees. It's meant we have to use the utility room as a defacto loft, which is a pain. But my point is that by the time we found out about this, it was too late to change, as the boxes had been packed, deposit/rent paid and notice period ended on our previous tenancy. And landlords often lie about repairs etc.

    No - I'm sure there are some good landlords out there. But that does not excuse those who went into the service of providing the roof over someone's head - probably the most crucial service there is, after healthcare - on the basis of some Inside Track dream of 'Life on Easy Street', or after watching property !!!!!! on TV. Frankly, when prices rise, being a landlord isn't terribly demanding, on the whole. So those who still fail to fulfil their not terribly onerous demands to ensure their property is adequately and safely maintained are just as greedy as bankers who want to be paid huge wodges when they fail in their duties, and just as irresponsible.

    Sorry.
  • Innys
    Innys Posts: 1,881 Forumite
    Whether you feel landlords are greedy or not depends on what side of the fence you are. They are not charities and in it to make money, pure and simple. If any landlord tells you otherwise, they are lying.

    However, HOW they go about making money is very varied. IMHO, as in all walks of life, there are good and there are bad - both tenants and landlords.

    Occassionally, just very occassionally, a good landlord gets good tenants. In that case, both parties tend to do their utmost to prolong the relationship, especially if they have had bad experiences in the past.

    As a landlord, I will not allow my tenants to walk over me, but, equally, I will deal with any problems they have ASAP. If I feel my tenants are damaging my property, delaying paying the rent or similarly breaking the terms of the tenancy agreement, I will be less inclined to keep up my side of the agreement. It's human nature, and, I feel, entirely reasonable.

    As to whether landlords are denying FTBs from getting on the property ladder, I have made many sacrifices to buy my houses. Other people I know insist on renting in the centre of London for the nightlife/convenience. They then bleat that they can't afford a deposit to buy their own place. I have no time for that argument. Life is about sacrifices/compromises. If you aren't prepared to make them, don't be surprised if you lose out.
  • geoffky
    geoffky Posts: 6,835 Forumite
    There are always going to be slumlords until the governments legislate more against the one sided agreements people have to sign..And who has seen them squealing like pigs that the citizens advice wants to make life harder for them by giving the tenants a better deal ..( see petition on singing pig).. bloody rachmans


    "Peter Rachman was a notorious landlord in the sixties, he saw an opportunity to make money out of housing black immigrants when nobody else would house them. He turfed out all of his existing tenants and replaced them with black. Conditions were disgusting he didn't keep the properties in good condition and took advantage of his tenants as no one else would house them, he charged high rents and sent in 'heavies' to collect rent.
    At this time the Kray twins were just starting up their empire, they saw Peter Rachman business as a source of income for them selves, Rachman refused to pay them any money but a deal was struck to keep the krays off his back. Rachman gave then his night club which was the first the Krays owned and were they ran there empire from.
    Its a mystery what happened to Rachman but it is thought that he died but others say he faked his death and disappeared.
    A lot of recent housing law was made on the back of the Rachman era or Rachmanisum as its known, I have noticed that there are still some landlords who operate this way with the influx of EU workers and asylum seekers, they know that the tenants won't complain!! The funny thing about Rachman is that if you ask the black people that Rachman housed they will say that he housed them when nobody else would, there actually grateful to him."

    replace blacks with poles
    It is nice to see the value of your house going up'' Why ?
    Unless you are planning to sell up and not live anywhere, I can;t see the advantage.
    If you are planning to upsize the new house will cost more.
    If you are planning to downsize your new house will cost more than it should
    If you are trying to buy your first house its almost impossible.
  • dopester
    dopester Posts: 4,890 Forumite
    Interesting stuff Geoff.

    Landlords are feeling the reversal all over the UK. I especially get to hear of it through a professional contact (can't share those reports) and in the news and forums.

    It seems only a matter of time until the economic unwinding has many landlords who still feel "safe" and happy under severe financial pressures, with rents values seeing negative pressure and continued and massive capital value losses.

    Even some of the Singing Pigs, in the fall and worry of Bradford & Bingley, are denouncing the lending practices of recent years - but now with some noticeable attitudes changes going on - whereas before everyone was a genius, now they can't decide who, and who is not, an "experienced investor."

    Every landlord for themselves from now on. Do they realise that the fall of the "inexperienced" landlords will also impact hard on their own portfolios and rental prospects?

    Time will tell, especially for all those who repeatedly kept MEW-ing to buy in again on margin in to the boom.

    Bradford & Bingley finally admitted defeat!
    http://www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/thread/589733.aspx
    There's no doubt that for the professional landlord the instant remortgage was a sound product and I do believe that once this ridiculous credit situation has eased a mechanism to buy without an actual cash deposit will be available to the experienced investor on a deal by deal basis; probably similar to how we used to fund commercial deals.
    The thing is Pod how do you identify amateur versus professional landlords. For example do you have to have 5+ properties, have been investing for 1 year or more?

    Also I have examples of investors who have been investing for years having geared up in recent times and have now gone bust
    whereas I have other examples of investors that have been investing for a couple of years but they have very solid cash flow properties who will be fine.
    Every time I learn of a BTL landlord going bust my spirits soar. I feel the world get that little bit lighter.

    And I honestly believe many people here have hugely underestimated the extent of the crash to come, the economic unwinding on jobs and wages, and how deflation weighs so hard on property values and those with debt.
    House prices are falling at fastest rate since the Great Depression

    By Harry Wallop and Edmund Conway
    Last Updated: 6:17AM BST 05 Sep 2008


    House prices are falling at the fastest rate since the Great Depression new figures show, with the number of home owners in negative equity trebling in the last month alone.

    Figures released by Halifax, the country’s largest mortgage lender, showed that the average house price has slumped in value by 12.7 per cent since August last year – leaving the average price at just £174,178.

    This represents a fall of more than £25,000 over the last year and is the fastest rate of decline since Halifax started collecting its monthly data in 1983.

    However, leading City economists said that the housing market has never witnessed an annual fall of more than 10 per cent except for in 1931 – a year when Britain was hit by the aftermath of the Wall Street crash and sterling collapsed.

    David Owen, chief European economist at investment bank Dresdner Kleinwort, said: “It is a major collapse. The last correction in house prices was around 20 per cent from peak to trough.

    "What we are seeing in terms of declines at the moment – those sorts of falls are absolutely unprecedented, certainly in living memory, and you would have to go back to the 1930s to find anything similar.
    With the fall taking average prices back to the level they were in March 2006, thousands of home owners now own a property worth less than when they bought it.

    According to the credit rating agency Standards & Poor’s, the number of people in negative equity has now climbed to over 200,000 – a near trebling of the 70,000 it estimated at the end of July.
    Michael Saunders, chief UK economist, at the world’s largest bank Citigroup, pointed out that this year’s house price crash has happened far quicker and hit people more severely than the declines seen during the early 1990s.

    “In the early 1990s, the peak-trough decline in house prices was 13.1 per cent, and this occurred over 74 months, from May 1989 to July 1995.

    "Now, house prices are down 12.7 per cent already, in just 12 months."

    “The message of economic weakness is clear.”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/2795677/House-prices-are-falling-at-fastest-rate-since-the-Great-Depression.html
  • sooz
    sooz Posts: 4,560 Forumite
    carolt wrote: »
    And those who say you should suss out a landlord in advance as much as the tenant - this is not always possible to do, if you are renting through an agency.

    We had everything packed and the removal van ordered, when the landlady for our current place phoned us the night before we were due to move in. She mentioned in passing about 'you know you can't use the loft?' I was dumbfounded, as one of the things I'd specifically double-checked with the agent showing us round was that the loft was boarded and we could use it, as we were moving from a house with a loft full of stuff and needed to store it (family heirlooms etc).

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, she refused to budge on the loft (telling us that in her country (she's South African) people don't board lofts and it's very dangerous!), despite previous guarantees. It's meant we have to use the utility room as a defacto loft, which is a pain. But my point is that by the time we found out about this, it was too late to change, as the boxes had been packed, deposit/rent paid and notice period ended on our previous tenancy. And landlords often lie about repairs etc.

    If the loft was that important to you, why did you not get it in writing that the loft was included in the tenancy? By the night before, with everything booked & deposit paid, you must have signed the agreement. Every agreement I've ever seen includes a space for areas included or excluded from the tenancy. If she'd then turned around & pulled such a stunt, you could have either insisted that she allow you to use it, or get her to cover your costs of alternative storage for the duration of your agreement.
  • tbs624
    tbs624 Posts: 10,816 Forumite
    leviathan wrote: »
    Often the case. Perhaps it's too naive to think people don't screw each otehr to be on top.
    A case of "I'm all right Jack" eh ?
    Get down off your high horse- you've admitted twice now that you would have bought into BTL if you could. Now, if we follow your logic you'd be "screwing over" other people yourself by doing so surely?
    leviathan wrote: »
    I can forgive those who are doing it because their provision has been taken, but then there are those simily taking advantage of others.
    ..you've lost me :confused:
    leviathan wrote: »
    Yes, and whilst I detest regulation becasue it often doesn't work I've found quite a lack of it present from this side of the fence whilst renting.
    so do you want regulation or don't you? AFIAA there are currently around 80 pieces of legislation relating to property rental - you have to work within those. I'd agree that there are some areas that need to worked on - I personally would like to see "retaliatory evictions" dealt with properly so that Ts can bring up repairs issues without worrying unduly that they will lose their home at expiry of their fixed term.
    leviathan wrote: »
    I don't need a new carpet every year
    that's reassuring , you had me worried there. ;)
    leviathan wrote: »
    ....there is a large hole on the underside of my landing for example and if I owned the house I'd have fixed it long before now. My LL seems fit to leave it be.
    So you follow the repairs complaints procedures and get it done, one way or another. There have been plenty of threads on here on repairs issues too, with good advice, much of it given freely by ...erm. ..LLs.
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