Council Tax Banding Appeal - Help!

Gerrysea

Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice. We live in a 1930's Semi, which is in fact a former large single property, which back in the 30's was divided into two almost identical, but mirror imaged properties. I have lived in and paid Rates/Poll Tax/Council Tax on the property since 1977. Having followed Martin's guidelines we have established that the other half of the Semi (next door) is in Band "D" whist we are in band "E"? After an e-mail and a couple of letters we eventually got a reply saying that our appeal was invalid, so followed up with another letter based on wording from Martins guide and the response said that they would be looking in to our appeal. Some considerable time went by without any further word, so I made contact by telephone. It took a couple of calls back and forth until I was in contact with the guy dealing with our case. In a nutshell, he said that he'd looked into the situation, and found that our property was correctly banded, as "E" and it was the adjoining property that was incorrectly banded as "D"?

He was a nice guy and seemed to be very helpful and willing to chat and explain things. As our conversation continued it became apparent that in 1991, both properties had been Banded "E" and next door had later been re-banded "D"? And then the strangest thing, he said that he was unable to give me any information as to why the rebanding had taken place or what the reasons had been for the drop in banding, as there was no information at all about it in the files? When I suggested that to be somewhat strange, he agreed saying that he could not explain it? However, it was his view that we could appeal at tribunal but would be highly unlikely to succeed?

A check on the site to check bandings reveals that next door went from band "E" to band "D" 1 April 1993 and a Check on the Valuation site suggests that the second quarter 1991 valuation of the next door property (so presumably ours also) would have been just £600+ over £88,000 which would appear to put both just into band "E"? Clearly the owner of the adjacent property back in 1992-93 was able to present a case for that to be changed? Our neighbours have checked all the files that they have on their property but can find no reference there either.

The only differences of any substance between the two properties are that next door has slightly bigger gardens front and rear, and our property which is a corner plot, does not have its own water supply. Our water comes on to the property next door and into ours through the adjoining wall between the two properties, up in the loft space.

We have been given a date in November for our appeal to be heard. Our Neighbours of the last four years are some of the nicest people, and the very best neighbours you could wish for. I'd hate it to turn out that they have their CT band raised as a result of us tilting at windmills in pursuit of a lost cause? However, if we have a case that's winnable I'd like to fight it?

Your advice would be gratefully received.

vivatifosi

Hi Gerry,

First I'd say bear in mind that if their band is raised they will have a right to go to tribunal, so try not to worry too much at this stage.

Where I live, I won a tribunal and then worked with my neighbour to win a second one. In their case, there was a very similar situation - two identical houses and one had been rebanded by the VOA the other hadn't. Among the tribunal's many findings was one key issue - the panel felt that the person in the VOA would have had better and more relevant and timely information in the mid 1990s than the current VOA (who were also unable to present all of the relevant information because some had been mislaid). This led to a rebanding down of my neighbours house. I have heard rumour, and perhaps someone from the VOA can confirm this, that they have a problem that the government is urging them to go all digital, but not all of the old paper files are digitised and hence the legacy systems can be poor, especially where offices have moved.

It sounds like you have a very helpful Listing Officer (LO) and that's a great stage to be at. Now, does your neighbour have the paperwork from when the houses were rebanded? They may have received some sort of back up explanation at the time that you could use to substantiate your claim. It doesn't sound like you have an automatic right to a tribunal, so try and keep the LO on side, but stick at it. If you go over to the main "reduce your band" thread at the top of the tax section, there's plenty more tips to get you set.

lincroft1710

Gerrysea - I'm a little surprised that they've no info on reason for reduction, as when VOA settled an appeal an A4 sized card should have been made out,with reasons and comparables. From personal experience different caseworkers have different opinions and evidence isn't always conclusive, so current caseworker clearly believes Band E correct whereas a previous caseworker didn't.

The tribunal hearing will just determine if you have made a valid appeal, that is has it been made in accordance with law relating to making CT appeal. As you were council taxpayer as at 1 Apr !993 you had until 30 Nov 1993 to make appeal, so an appeal by you made in 2008 is clearly not valid. The Tribunal will not consider whether or not band is correct, but probably ask that LO investigates it if he hasn't already done so.

Without knowing what evidence was used to arrive at band cannot really advise, other than if it is very borderline we usually gave benefit of doubt and reduced, but no guarantees (I'm ex VOA).

Gerrysea

vivatifosi wrote: »

Hi Gerry, ………….Now, does your neighbour have the paperwork from when the houses were rebanded? They may have received some sort of back up explanation at the time that you could use to substantiate your claim. It doesn't sound like you have an automatic right to a tribunal, so try and keep the LO on side, but stick at it….

Hi vivatifosi, No I’m afraid not, as I say, they’ve gone through their files but there is no information regarding a CT appeal or the re-banding at all? So it looks as if I have to build a complete new case for myself? Brand new territory for me, wouldn’t have a clue where to start or what a tribunal will expect or need?

However, the fact that you have succeeded in the past, in very similar circumstances, is very interesting and encouraging.

lincroft1710 wrote: »

Gerrysea - I'm a little surprised that they've no info on reason for reduction, as when VOA settled an appeal an A4 sized card should have been made out,with reasons and comparables. From personal experience different caseworkers have different opinions and evidence isn't always conclusive, so current caseworker clearly believes Band E correct whereas a previous caseworker didn't… …

Hi Lincroft, Yep, the guy that I spoke to on the phone also seemed surprised that there was no info about the reasons for re-banding or any other details, but he was clear in his statement that this was the case, repeatin’ it two or three times during our conversation? Regardin’ his opinion about the banding of the adjacent property, he even had me hold on the phone whilst he went away to re-check the details, and on his return confirmed that according to available information, it was definitely next doors banding that was incorrect, ours was correct? With no details available he was unable to offer any comment or information on the previous case.

lincroft1710 wrote: »

……. The tribunal hearing will just determine if you have made a valid appeal, that is has it been made in accordance with law relating to making CT appeal. As you were council taxpayer as at 1 Apr !993 you had until 30 Nov 1993 to make appeal, so an appeal by you made in 2008 is clearly not valid. The Tribunal will not consider whether or not band is correct, but probably ask that LO investigates it if he hasn't already done so………….

I can see from the list provided by Martin, that there appears to be no validation for my appeal, so of course you are correct. But since I was not made aware of the re-banding that took place 1 April 1993, how could I reasonably be expected to appeal within 6 months of that date. I didn’t find out about it until earlier this year, and started my enquiries with them within days? If a tribunal will only “determine if we have made a valid appeal, made in accordance with law relating to making CT appeal”, the answer to that appears to be a foregone conclusion? What form should my appeal to any tribunal take?

lincroft1710 wrote: »

………. Without knowing what evidence was used to arrive at band cannot really advise, other than if it is very borderline we usually gave benefit of doubt and reduced, but no guarantees (I'm ex VOA).

I can easily understand that, since I am in exactly the same predicament. However, without the background knowledge that you guys have, I fear that I’m in somethin’ of a cleft stick, not knowing which way to turn from here and what to look for!

I suspect that there could be some justifications for valuing our property in 1991 slightly lower than next-door such as, smaller gardens, Right of way for next door across the back of our land, corner plot with the sidewalk on the side wall of our property, no independent water supply? And the 2nd quarter 1991 valuation appears to be less than £700.00 above £88,000.00? But how can I make all this relevant some 17 ½ years on, and just a little outside their 6 month cut off period?

Sincere thanks to you both for takin’ the time and trouble to respond, your advice is valued and appreciated.

lincroft1710

Gerrysea - there is little point you pursuing validity aspect, far better to concentrate on building a case for reduction with VOA. Ask the guy at VOA to tell you what evidence leads him to believe Band E is correct rather than D. He won't be able to give you full address, date and price (rules of confidentiality) but will be able to say something like "semi similar age and size as yours 2 streets away sold for £x in early 91", or "one a bit smaller sold for....."

Sidwell

Lincroft1710 - You recently were very helpful by giving me similar advice to that you gave Gerrysea. I sent an email to the VOA but have heard nothing.
What can I do if they do not respond, e.g. is there anybody else I can contact regarding their lack of response?

lincroft1710

Sidwell - thanks.

VOA are duty bound to respond! This is taken from VOA website

If you email or write to us we will:

• Acknowledge your email or letter within 3 working days of receiving it.
• Aim to answer all your questions in plain language as soon as possible and within a maximum of 20 working days – our overall aim is to respond within an average of 6 working days. If we do not have all the facts there may sometimes be a delay. We will write to you and tell you if this is the case.

If you hear nothing I would ring them or even resend the email, however I know from talking to former colleagues that the sheer volume of enquiries is more than they can handle.

Sidwell

Lincroft1710 - This is the latest response from VOA when asked for disclosure of actual sales details of similar houses in my road, without naming owners or house numbers, as you kindly suggested.

No, this would not be possible. However, I can confirm that I have again extracted the paperwork relating to your case and checked again through our 1991 records and find none of the houses you have referred to sold in 1991. As I stated in my letter dated 25 April 2008, which I appreciate you have only recently received, I really am unable to assist you any further. I stated in that letter that I would not be entering into further correspondence with you and I will therefore not be responding to any further letters or emails from you.

Is there any point in referring this refusal to disclose information about actual house sales to the Chief Listing Officer, as well refusing to say why similar properties were put in a lower Band during 1993?

lincroft1710

Hi Sidwell

At one time the tone of last 2 sentences would have suggested that its recipient was a "vexatious" correspondent, i.e. one who when told something is correct, will not accept it and keeps on pestering with same argument. More recently where there is no right of appeal and VOA believes band is correct and has stated this fact, and also because there has been an overwhelming amount of extra correspondence re CT bands, they use this phraseology.

If you go on to VOA website, click on to "Where to find us". Locate the Group which your local VO belongs to and follow links. You will find amongst details the name of Group Customer Service Manager. Write to this person at Group Office address, making sure envelope and letter is marked "Abcd Efgh, Group Customer Service Manager" as GCSMs often have other duties. Basically write same letter as you wrote to VOA, explaining that you think their response is unsatisfactory.

Alternatively write to your MP enclosing (if poss) copies of your correspondence with VOA and say you are not happy with VOA response and would they look into matter for you. VOA love getting letters from MPs (NOT - LOL!!!! )

Sidwell

Lincroft1710 - Many thanks. I will write as suggested and let you know outcome.

Gerrysea

Hi All,

I’ve been spendin’ some time trying to formulate my strategy for dealing with this current position, not really cherishing the idea, as I truly didn’t know where I was to start. But unbeknown to me, I guess that the nice chap at VOA was continuin’ to look into the missing information from the file on next doors appeal back in 1993, because this morning I received a letter from VOA addressed to The Council Taxpayer?

Was this goin’ to be notice of the forthcoming tribunal?………….. NO! It was: -

COUNCIL TAX: NOTIFICE OF ALTERATION TO AN EXISTING ENTRY IN THE VALUATION LIST

I have altered the existing Valuation List to show: -
…………
Band: D
Effective Date of Alteration: 1 April 1993

The previous list entry was: E
The coded reason for the alteration is 6, ………. (Council tax list amended in the light of additional information)

The new band is based on the estimated open market value of the property at 1 April 1991 subject to certain statutory assumptions. …………..

…………… Questions about paying Council Tax should, however, be made to your local Council, shown above as the Billing Authority. They have already been notified of this change.

So guys, this would appear to be part 1 of another success story based on following Martin’s advice and guidelines!!!

Would I be correct in my assumption that there should now be a reimbursement of excess CT paid from 1 April 1991, rather than the alteration date of 1993? Do I need to write to the Billing Authority requesting this?

Hi Sidwell, Keep at it mate!

Thanks guys, and of course thanks to Martin.