Cruch to last at LEAST another 18 mnths

amcluesent

> some Bildenburg type master plan.<

You don't have to scratch the surface very much to start seeing the same people at work, e.g. Common Purpose members, an inversion of common sense in policy making, suspension of democratic process in the EU, the manufacturing of consent for state control ("Will no one think of the children!") through the controlled media, notably the BBC.

How many people know the EU wants to make anonymous internet use illegal? You'll need to login with your biometric ID card before the ISP will let you connect to the web.

Dithering_Dad

dopester wrote: »

There are no real extreme views here, although we could use our imagination for some Bildenburg type master plan.

Phase 1: Foreign war.

Phase 2:

a) The secret war on the domestic population begins in full. Fatten and soften them up with vast sums of cheap easy credit, abandoning all historic precedents for lending, enjoying the win-win-win of continuous HPI, and letting them gorge away with consuming, whilst the city-boys siphon big chunks of wealth in pay and bonuses... until reaching the crunch.

b) Enter depression. Society begins to decay and turn on itself. Financial meltdown ensues. Political instability. Power cuts and food shortages leading to rationing. Rioting and violence. Situation deteriorates further. Society breaks down. Death numbers sharply rise.

c) Those communities remaining scavenge for food in the daytime, and then hole up at night, hoping to remain undetected from the many packs of feral chav gangs who were deliberately alienated by policy in the boom years, and who now roam the streets at night, tiny minds full of blind fury, and like Charlton Heston in "Omega Man" (or Will Smith in... "I Am Legend")... wait out the long nights out until daylight.

Phase 3: The rich emerge from their deep cosy well-stockpiled bunkers. Treasures, art and gold intact. Change in to rag type clothes. Nominate a great orator to promise a new beginning with new hope to the remaining survivors. Imposes a New World Order. New cycle begins.

lol, I was referring to the extremes of rabid HPC and rabid HPI that exists on this board. I've been accused of being both on several occasions, which must make me a member of the central ground. Certainly I had nothing to gain from HPI and have nothing to lose from HPC. Not many ordinary home owners do, well at least the ones with a decent amount of equity or a long mortgage deal.

Must be annoying for members who make long and detailed posts, where they pompously declare that they, and only they 'saw it all coming' or the other mainstay declaration of 'If only they listened to me' (whoever 'they' are) to have someone irreverent make fun of them rather than giving the 'thank button presses' and heaped praise for their insight that they so crave.

It's good fun though and I think it's a valid activity on a public forum. Somw of these egos need to be punctured once in a while or there will be no living with these guys.

steadysaver

logie28 wrote: »

A list of tax increases is pathetic because that is what governments do,!!!
not just labour(who incidentally cut the income tax this April,, sorry shouldn't mention tax cuts)

They did cut the 22% rate to 20% and to pay for this removed the 10% rate. However it was hardly a tax cut for those earning 15k or less. Infact they were much worse off. Hardly a great move, which resulted in a 2.7billion pound payout to the general public.

Does it still look like such a great tax cut?

rizla01

Just reading these posts it occurs to me that your perspective on the present economy is largely dictated by your own status in life.

if you are a home owner/renter. If owner whether or not Mortgaged. If not what savings/investments you have.

For this reason many make statements that annoy others in a different circumstance.

I'm from the old school and don't believe in the never-never for things I want. I have always saved or gone without. I own a 'V' reg and don't go out for meals much, rarely drink and have the odd holiday when I feel I want one. (One every 2 years, perhaps and then it's self catering for me).

I wouldn't dream of getting a second-hand bed or toilet or fridge Etc (Personal hygiene) but anything else goes. I don't need the latest and still have a CRT Tv.

My life would be considered boring by a lot of peeps standards but it is not the likes of me that will feel the full force of this downturn and I am already well placed to take advantage of the eventual upturn (Kids off hand and could live in a shack).

Age also has a lot to do with our outlook. Those that have suffered in the past are not as affected, perhaps as those that haven't. Maybe lessons were learned last time.

The poster (Not going back to look) that said that we need a recession and indeed benefit from one, every now and then, was spot on. How else will you ever learn to be careful. Spend Spend Spend, has run away with itself and few of you are safeguarded against this kind of occurance otherwise you wouldn't be so troubled this time.

Just to finalise - Ask yourself. This one is going to hurt you, perhaps, but will the next one?

lynzpower

The thing is rizla and I agree with you wholeheatedly, some of us really have been moneysaving on this site for a very long time. - youve been here 3 years, me 2 etc.

We have well absorbed the act of moneysaving and many of us now are very comfortable with what we have and where were at. im not the highest earner, i dont have the nicest house, dont have a car, but moneysaving is second nature now, I regard it as normal, ( just made a few quid selling old cds online for example, that will go striaght into savings) and that normality means that we save somewhere around 1200 a month. Which for us isnt bad, we can definately cut back again should we need to. Oh temps, so at the best of times, theres that worry of not having an income coming in, but we are adaptable, and we WILL survive, no matter what. We could probably live for about 3 years on our savings in this country with NO benefits, although it would probably involve living in with family for a bit. Personaly Id rather we take it out of the UK and squander it all on travelling around the world! At least we'd get some fun out of it!!

Compare this to others I know, even in my own family, who are still driving 2 mins to the shop, still shopping for fun on credit, yet worried about poor pensions provision but taking 6 long haul holidays a year. I dont think it has even started yet. No one I know has lost thier job, but my dad is vulnerable. Lucky he has lived through the last recession and changed jobs a lot, his trade is very vulnerable to low consumer spending. I know some freinds who have seen thier debt come home to roost - and stung by mortgages. Unfortunately for one, it has been whilst she is on maternity leave, so financially they are really struggling. I think in some respects a recession is needed.- after all the rabied consumption that has gripped this country in the last even 5 years makes me feel ill. Its as if nothing else matters, jsut having stuff/ respect/ bling/ nicest house on the street/ Hopefully it woud mean that communities pull together again like the war years, but this time round I just cant see it.

mr.broderick

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

lol, lovely sentiments B, but hardly likely on the Housing 'ghetto' sub-board. I did a similar appeal just now asking that if the so-called 'doom mongers' insist on pasting in every scrap of negative financial data, they could at least add in their own 'recession survival gudelines'.

There are so many posters that are rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of a recession that it makes one wonder why they're going to immune from the effects. If they have a secret stretegy for survival, then I for one want to share in it!!!!

I will actually reply to this because it is another of your good points and i will tell you why.
When people live in rented and are not in control of their own destiny deep in the back of their mind they think 'what can be any worse?' A recession will certainly hurt most of the population them included but it will reduce the 2 tier society that has arisen, those with and those without. After the fallout they may have a chance to buy a home whereas if property continued to rise they never ever will get the chance.

StevieJ

ultra10 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/money/2008/09/06/cncrunch106.xml

30% peak the bottom falls seem quite likely now !!! :eek:

Strange how HBOS has suddenly become the Font of all knowledge.

dopester

rizla01 wrote: »

Just reading these posts it occurs to me that your perspective on the present economy is largely dictated by your own status in life.

You might not like my anarchy outcome - I don't either - and it was a half-joke.

I hate conspiracy theories but could believe one for this outcome where we are now, if it wasn't for bankers such as, Andy Hornby (CEO HBOS) admitting in a television interview some astonishing things.

There he is, on TV, making a great play on how they've been dumbfounded that not only do they have to look at our local economy in setting out their policy and lending - but now they come to realise have to consider the economic picture around the world- as though this is some great revelation. IT WAS ALWAYS THUS with banking and economies.

Andy Hornby is very articulate and probably has top maths ability, but some of the things he admitted in that interview were scary and astonishing.

He reminded me of some kind of idealistic fresh student caught up in the Labour propaganda of "Things can only get better" and "No more boom and bust", the banker who wants to be your friend in the good years. "Here we've got money... take it.. take more, we don't know what to do with it, so just take it.. and look at house prices... look at them go up and up and up... obviously it must continue like this from now on", - instead of a cold and realistic professional banker with responsibilities.

Where did he think all the multi-billions were coming from with these exotic financing and relatively new securitisation methods? You know... all the floods of money which allowed ever greater multiples of lending, even to those with poor credit, and led to liar loans from people who could never afford to pay them back... or skipped the country.

Did they ever think to stress test this new funding repeatedly, examine how it works in full practice at the source, should the day come those markets would close? Unbelievable. Yet not just him... clearly most UK banks acted similarly.

dopester

rizla01 wrote: »

Just reading these posts it occurs to me that your perspective on the present economy is largely dictated by your own status in life.

Maybe partially true, but not fully.

You only have to look at megapolitical factors affecting Mexico now with the rising violence and kidnapping, and the test it is putting on society.

There is such a thing as the rise and fall of great powers and real reasons on why things happen.

Or take a snapshot from many periods in history where society has broken down - it can get bad. Example... after the collapse of the Chinese monarchy in 1911, who had allowed their ruling position to weaken, and had allowed themselves to lose real controlling power over the rest of the country. China fell under marauding armies, bandits and warlords who pillaged and looted with crazy abandon, leaving millions dead.

A new band of thugs seized control on an average of once every two days. Anyone who was suspected of possessing even a vestige of wealth was fair play for kidnapping and torture.

As an official report put it, "When they capture a person for ransom first they pierce his legs with iron wire, and bind them together as fish are hung on string. When they return to their bandit dens the captives are interrogated and cut in two at the waist, as a warning to the others."

Merchants from Chengtu, capital of Szechuan Province protested, "We have nothing left but the grease between our bones."

Governments are thugs and thieves at heart imo (and born in history from bandits who settled, and began collecting taxes, became the main custodians of violence at a large scale, and had some incentive to allow citizens to prosper, to collect more in taxes) - but better that than go back to the anarchy of roving bandits and gangs.

Yet here we are, unbelievably in a position where we have to worry about the stability of the financial system. Where conversations between intelligent people can descend in to strategies about the sense in storing weeks of food, and gold hoarding, and which banks are safest for savings, as the system has been put at risk, through no shortage of neglect, stupidity, and attitude to risk.

Gorgeous_George

If you select 'Edit' and 'Go advanced' you can add the 'n' to crunch in your title.



GG