Credit Card Misuse - theft !

Incisor

NickX wrote: »

I have the same problem with this as I do with the OP's situation.

You have a Company Credit Card and you withdraw funds on it that your employer has not agreed to. No problem with the Card Provider because you are an authorized Additional Card Holder. Your employer is going to be hacked off (just as the OPs friend is) and will no doubt sack you.

Lets say they call the police on the basis that it was theft. You then say to the police, "My boss said I could have this as a bonus, now he has sacked me and wants it back, but I was promised it etc"

The boss tells the truth and says "No he just took it without permission and it is theft etc"

Once again it is one word against another. Yes it is morally wrong and is theft but proving it one way or another is another matter. I agree with you that the police probably just wouldn't be bothered, so I think the criminal conviction is not a certainty.

Back to the small claims court and again I think it could go either way.

Just to repeat my earlier comment from post 15 :

You said "a visit to the small claims court would show that he is legally obliged".

If you had said "a visit to the small claims court could show that he is legally obliged", then I would agree with you.


We are agreed on the contract between the Primary Card Holder and the Card Provider. OK.

What I actually said was: but a visit to the small claims court would show that he is legally obliged, if it can be proved that he took the money.

Quoted fully, I think that there is nothing wrong with 'would' rather than 'could' in what I said. Effectively you are agreeing with me, that as a matter of law, the events described would be dealt with by at least a civil court if not a criminal court. And also you are agreeing that the difficult issue is the facts of the matter, ie establishing that the ex took the money.

Incisor

daveboy wrote: »

For what it's worth, I think she'll be coughing up the £6000 as she is responsible for the transactions on the second card.

It was her responsibility to phone the card company to get the second card stopped.

She didn't - an expensive mistake.

That is absolutely right as far as her responsibilities to the bank go. The ex has no responsibility to the bank and they won't help by going after the ex.

But the ex still has legal responsibilities to her, and I hope she is able to pin it on him.

JimmyTheWig

So why don't you two agree to agree?

The question is, what does the friend need to do to get the proof, what should she do then, and what are her chances and costs?

NickX

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

So why don't you two agree to agree?

The question is, what does the friend need to do to get the proof, what should she do then, and what are her chances and costs?

Well I don't think we are that far apart actually.

We agree on the Terms and Conditions that the Primary Card Holder agreed to with the Credit Card Company.

Incisor has said :

but a visit to the small claims court would show that he is legally obliged, if it can be proved that he took the money.


We are probably getting too concerned with terminology to be honest. But to me the proving that he took the money is not the issue. I think the evidence is there in that he used ATM's near his mother's address, which strongly suggests that he did take the money

However I think the issue is proving that he took the money without the consent of the Primary Cardholder, and this is the point that I feel could simply be a case of one person's word against another, hence why I believe that involving police\small claims court may not be productive. However this does not mean that the OP's friend should not investigate these options as thoroughly as possible.

Hopefully she will come back an post an update before too long.

jpwjpw

Has anyone thought that Feb 2006 is a while ago and the second card has a good chance of having expired. I'd report it as fraud and see what the bank comes back with.

Also, I think the bank has acted terribly in not putting a fraud marker on and suspending the card, same thing happened to me but it was mail fraud in my case.

not_loaded

Allowing so many debits does seem a bit odd, and we can infer the card company has been lax, but we don’t have enough information to actually condemn them. An expired card would certainly put them in a bad position on this.

not_loaded has swayed me to thinking that a criminal conviction would possible here. The biggest difficulty is that the police are unlikely to want to take this on, because they are too lazy to collect the evidence.

There appears to be some evidence that the ex is involved. If there IS this evidence, that’s enough to take it to the police and they have to act on any report like this. However, how far they are prepared to take it is generally up to them, and what resources they have available.

If it was £50 taken I suspect it would not go anywhere. This is a lot of money though, with probably a lot of good evidence if the card company cooperate. You can always pursue it with a police complaint if you think they are not making an effort. However, we’re running before we can walk. If the OP’s friend is weak on pursuing this, we’re all wasting our time.

NickX, I am not bothered at all about proving you wrong or right. That’s not what this is about. I’d say you’re merely arguing at cross-purposes. Incisor could see this earlier, and apparently you could not, and still can’t??? I’m sorry you see this as some sort of battle to win. There’s no need to repeat your earlier comments as if it will change things. We can see them by scrolling up.

…and this is the point that I feel could simply be a case of one person's word against another, hence why I believe that involving police\small claims court may not be productive.

If the police get good card company evidence and work on it and present such evidence to the ex in the right manner, his statement could make it abundantly clear what went on. Giving up before you even try is never a good policy.

not_loaded

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

So why don't you two agree to agree?
The question is, what does the friend need to do to get the proof, what should she do then, and what are her chances and costs?

My approach would be to write to the card company’s fraud department, asking them to collate all the details pertaining to the queried withdrawals. Then request that THEY take it to the police. If they refused, I’d take it there myself.

So far, all a low cost option. The ‘chances’ depend on how good the evidence is, and whether the police confront the ex in the right way with it.

ExNicotineQueen

jpwjpw wrote: »

Has anyone thought that Feb 2006 is a while ago and the second card has a good chance of having expired. I'd report it as fraud and see what the bank comes back with.

Also, I think the bank has acted terribly in not putting a fraud marker on and suspending the card, same thing happened to me but it was mail fraud in my case.

I just checked my cc's and 4 out of 5 of them all have expiry dates between 3-4 years so a card issued in 2005 may well not be due for expiry until 2009 so I don't think the Feb 2006/expiry issue is anything suspicious.

Interestingly, the fact that the money was withdrawn from an ATM means that the person who withdrew the money;

a) cloned the card and knew the PIN number
b) it was the ex boyfriend using their card

On my joint cc's, if my OH has used the cc, the statement is split in 2 sections: 1 is my transactions on my card, 2 is all his transactions on his card (although we share the same cc, our card numbers the last 4 digits are different).

I would definitely say to dispute it with the bank/cc company. Better yet, call them up and ask them to give you more info on the dates/times of the transactions and whether they were made on your card or your ex's.

NickX

not_loaded wrote: »

NickX, I am not bothered at all about proving you wrong or right. That’s not what this is about. I’d say you’re merely arguing at cross-purposes. Incisor could see this earlier, and apparently you could not, and still can’t??? I’m sorry you see this as some sort of battle to win. There’s no need to repeat your earlier comments as if it will change things. We can see them by scrolling up.

Giving up before you even try is never a good policy.

not_loaded, my comment about proving you\me wrong or right was tongue in cheek (notice the subtly placed wink) because this is what Incisor said to me and I suggested was somewhat aggressive, but you deemed that I should get out more. I'm sorry you didn't realise that.

I do not see this as a battle to win anything, and perhaps in danger of repeating myself again (;) ) I don't think myself and Incisor are that far apart in our opinions. Certainly our understanding of the Primary \ Secondary cardholder relationships with the Card provider are the same.

I have not said at any point that the OP's friend should give up on persuing in this, I am just attempting to be realistic about the chances of success. But I would definitely say that they should do anything that they can to sort out the situation.

not_loaded

ExNicotineQueen wrote: »

…Interestingly, the fact that the money was withdrawn from an ATM means that the person who withdrew the money;

a) cloned the card and knew the PIN number
b) it was the ex boyfriend using their card

I suppose to be 100% fair this should read:

The person who withdrew the money…
a) cloned the card and knew the PIN number
b) was the ex boyfriend or an associate using his card
c) was the account holder or an associate using her card
d) was a card company inside jobber using a card of sorts

Thanks NickX for post #30.

Good luck OP in sorting this out. I hope your friend has the spirit to deal with this.