new bin tax + VAT on supply

loveangel

Secret Labour documents reported in the news have revealed that not only do labour plan to charge the middle class for their refuse collection based on weight but they are also planning to force council to introduce VAT to the costs of bin collections.
HMRC is already fighting all the way to the European Court of Justice to overturn a ruling that council car parking shodul be VAT free, having lost twice, HMRC is bitterly brawling in the ECJ for every penny they can screw out of the UK public. Isle of Wight council led the revolution against this dictatorship government and was joined by at least a further three councils, refused to charge residents VAT for parking. Labour could very well end up with egg all over their greedy piggy little faces by the time the European Courts tell them what they think of these nasty taxes on motorists!

Not deterred by the hammering in the Courts Labour is twisting the arm of HMRC to try the same scam with the supply of refuse collection - secret memos have revealed that labour plan to ask Local Authorities to pay VAT on the cost of supply of resuse collection services where there is or could be competition for thsoe services.

Currently the majority of labour supporters are exempt from many of El Gordo's stealth taxes - pension dividends(they don't generally save for pensions and rely on the state instead) - bin fines for overfilling or not recycling (they cannot be identified as council flats have communal bins);
clearly the only people who are being neiled by El Gordo are decent middle class workers who have worked hard all their lives to have a respectable family life, only to get tergetted by El Gordon with increased road tax, bin fines, speeding fines, parking fines, fleecing of londoners for ken livingstones lunatic lefty projects(clearly those on the dole an dincome support pay no council tax and we pay for their housing benefit and all teh other freebies such as dental treatment and everything else they get for free from this labour government.

This vat on refuse collection i feel will be the last straw as it will force up Council tax once again and to add insult to injury it is rumoured that Labour plan to force councils to introduce an envoromental eco tax on top of the VAT for bin collection. This eco tax will be added to the bill for every council tax payer in the UK in order to help you contribute more directly to cleaning up the planet and allowing you to take personal responsibility for pollution.

It seems to me that Labour are operating like the vision that Socilaist Action group had - who ken livingstone was closely linked to:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3216954.ece

Richard019

I thought things were VAT free if they were considered an essential?

If I were to leave my rubbish building up in my garden, at somepoint the council would decided that it was "essential in the interests of public health" that it be removed. All regular bin emptying does is break the job down into smaller chunks for them.

Incidentally, if my rubbish consisted entirely of Jaffa Cake/Snowball/Pringle wrappers would the collection of it become VAT free? It would be the essential removal of the waste created by me having essential products.

A tax on overflowing bins is also unworkable. If my bin were full I'd just use a neighbour's. If there's a particularly unpleasant neighbour I'll just use their bin for all my untraceable waste and run up fines for them.

Not deterred by the hammering in the Courts Labour is twisting the arm of HMRC to try the same scam with the supply of refuse collection - secret memos have revealed that labour plan to ask Local Authorities to pay VAT on the cost of supply of resuse collection services where there is or could be competition for thsoe services.

If they're going to force us to pay VAT on it to open up competition doesn't that mean we should be able to opt out of it?

As it is I live in a building with 3 flats in it. We each have our own bin, but we just use one bin until it's full and then go onto the next one so that we don't have to put as many out each week, sorry fortnight. We'd only need to have one of us in it to get rid of our rubbish. (it is a money saving forum as well)


In the unlikely event they do introduce both, watch it become monthly collections so that more bins are overflowing and they recoup the lost money.

guppy

loveangel wrote: »

Secret Labour documents reported in the news have revealed that not only do labour plan to charge the middle class for their refuse collection based on weight but they are also planning to force council to introduce VAT to the costs of bin collections.

I'm confused.

Why are only the middle class being charged? What about the upper and working classes?

I don't pay for my bin collection, it comes out of my council tax. Am I going to pay Value Added Tax on my Council Tax?

This makes no sense whatsoever.

RayWolfe

"Isle of Wight council led the revolution against this dictatorship government ... Labour could very well end up with egg all over their greedy piggy little faces by the time the European Courts tell them what they think of these nasty taxes on motorists!"

... and you expect to be taken seriously?

ffacoffipawb

loveangel wrote: »

It seems to me that Labour are operating like the vision that Socilaist Action group had - who ken livingstone was closely linked to:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3216954.ece

National Socialists more like. Heil Gordon.

loveangel

The advovate general is simple a labour stooge from Mr Brown's crony wagon, he is simply putting the case on behalf of the labour government - he will be listened to but the ECJ will rulings will based on all the evidence as oppoosed to that of a tax fiend labour crony.

The Isle of Wight council are most likely to win in my humble opinion as there is no competition for large scale off street car parking on the isle of wight - it's all council. that excludes matalan and other supermarkets free or subsidised parking for shopping there, only straight forward parking with no strings attached will be used as a a comparator to consider where there is any distortion of competition.
Clearly at the very least where there is no large car park competition in a council area then the council will win, if there are NCP car parking then the ECJ could rule a small part victory from HMRC, although it will by a pyhrric victory where most rural councils around the UK hundreds of them will find out that they should be VAT exempt and will be claiming back oodles of overpaid VAT.
To my mind, labour crony at the ECJ aside, this was stupid scrooge-like move from HMRC, which as usual they will lose for the most part and land the labour government in even more debt!

with regrads bin tax with microchips in the bins causing flytipping - that's true and that will be the case - it will pit neighbour against neighbour - when you go on holiday you will have your most expensive bin collection as neighbours stuff your bin full of their heaviest rubbish that they have been saving up till you went on holiday.
weighed bins are not fiction it has been in place for years in Eire and works fine - but then again bin collection is not part of your corporation tax it is seraparate. But what labour plans to do is keep council tax as it is and cxharge extra on to for services you are already paying for bin collection, a bit like vehicle tax increases based on emissions, residents permits based on emissions and Red Ken's nearly was £25 big car tax on families dropping the kids off to school in london.
labour are desperate and have driven the economy over the edge so have been pick-pocketing for the past few years from non core voters - anyone who does not live in social housing.
emissions charging increases for residents permits are an excellent example:-

Social hounsing tenant on dole - permit cost up to a maximum of £25 per annum

Private rented flat - for worker on low wage - up to a maximum of £200

apparently social housing tenants will not only be exempt from labour's fake charity crusade to save the planet by simply fleecing tax payers and spending the money, but they are actively courted to support labour consultations over increases to charges for everything that only full time workers with less disposable income in private rented accomodation pay

moonrakerz

guppy wrote: »

I'm confused.

Why are only the middle class being charged? What about the upper and working classes?

The working class vote for Labour and the upper classes are now mainly Tony's and Gordo's cronies - simple innit ?

Elaine_Wilson

Like guppy I am also confused. Such emotive language does little to convince me of the truth of the statements.

Clearly at the very least where there is no large car park competition in a council area then the council will win, if there are NCP car parking then the ECJ could rule a small part victory from HMRC, although it will by a pyhrric victory where most rural councils around the UK hundreds of them will find out that they should be VAT exempt and will be claiming back oodles of overpaid VAT.

How will these councils work out who to repay the VAT they have charged in error? Do they have records of everyone who used their car parks? If not then I can't see how they will be able to reclaim "oodles of overpaid VAT". Surely the unjust enrichment provisions will be brought into play.

This vat on refuse collection i feel will be the last straw as it will force up Council tax once again

Could you explain this. At best council tax will fall by the costs now allocated to direct charging for bin emptying. At worse the councils will not reduce the council tax by the appropriate amount so how will council tax actually increase? The VAT element may increase the total amount you pay but it cannot increase the actual council tax.

But what labour plans to do is keep council tax as it is and charge extra on to for services you are already paying for bin collection,

I would appreciate a link to substantiate this claim. Are you only referring to Labour held councils? My local council is controlled by the Conservatives and they are certainly not slow in imposing increases.

loveangel

hello ellaine

vat reclaim by councils - well it;s rather simple really - most councils pay VAT to HMRC on off-street parking facilities that they run and charge for. so they woudl claim it from HMRC the public won't get any money back though!

vat on bins - very simple once again outside contractors are perfectly free to collect bins - you don;t get any council tax discount however but if Vat is chraged on contractors collections then the council should alos pay VAT on the notional value of bins collections.

the last comment - well while conservative councils are starved of any funding and labour councils gulp down huge government payments for underpriveledged areas, with areas of high concentrations of declared labour votes the donations from government to the local community and council subsidys are huge while people who have saved and worked all their lives, not been promiscuous with an army of illegitimate children, are frowned upon by this labour government who targets any kind of unethical or illegal bahaviour as potential labour voters to be nurturende and looked after and rewarded.

Elaine when your IDOL RED ken of Socilaist Action learns to ride a bike come back and talk to me.

Elaine_Wilson

loveangel wrote: »

vat reclaim by councils - well it;s rather simple really - most councils pay VAT to HMRC on off-street parking facilities that they run and charge for. so they woudl claim it from HMRC the public won't get any money back though!

If the supply of car parking is deemed to be an exempt supply then they would just stop charging VAT. No repayment involved. Did you mean that they would claim for VAT charged and paid over incorrectly in the past? If so, then unfortunately HMRC would not make any repayment as the councils would be "unjustly enriched". So central government would hang on to it.

loveangel wrote: »

vat on bins - very simple once again outside contractors are perfectly free to collect bins - you don;t get any council tax discount however but if Vat is chraged on contractors collections then the council should alos pay VAT on the notional value of bins collections.

I may have misunderstood you here. It appeared to me you were suggesting the councils would charge separately for the emptying of bins.

loveangel wrote: »

the last comment - well while conservative councils are starved of any funding and labour councils gulp down huge government payments for underpriveledged areas, with areas of high concentrations of declared labour votes the donations from government to the local community and council subsidys are huge while people who have saved and worked all their lives, not been promiscuous with an army of illegitimate children, are frowned upon by this labour government who targets any kind of unethical or illegal bahaviour as potential labour voters to be nurturende and looked after and rewarded.

You may be right. Or not as the case may be. I can't decide without facts.

loveangel wrote: »

Elaine when your IDOL RED ken of Socilaist Action learns to ride a bike come back and talk to me.

You seem to have made a rather wild assumption about my political views. And making leaps to unwarranted conclusions doesn't increase my propensity to believe your unsubstantiated statements.

JasonLVC

loveangel wrote: »

The advovate general is simple a labour stooge from Mr Brown's crony wagon, he is simply putting the case on behalf of the labour government - he will be listened to but the ECJ will rulings will based on all the evidence as oppoosed to that of a tax fiend labour crony.

The Advocate General is named POIARES MADURO, sounds a typically New Labour supporter to me!.

VAT law at an EU level - and be in no shadow of doubt here, VAT is an EU law and the UK are bound to abide by the EU outcomes of these cases - is all about fiscal neutrality and fairness of competition.

If a Councill can charge £1.00 for parking and keep it but NCP have to pay 17.5% over to the VATman then that is not fiscally neutral. Bear in mind we are only talking about on street parking here. Formal car parking in multi-story is a seperate supply and there is no issue at stake there.

You forget to mention that Councils have a concession in law known as Section 33 which allows them to reclaim input tax on services they provide which are deemed to be of a statutory nature - this concession allows Councils the same neutrality with private sector concerns, as Councils are unable to charge VAT on the majority of their services by the very nature of them being statutory requirements - such as street cleaning, emptying bins, social care and so forth.

For VAT to be charged on bin collections, the Council would have to open the service provision to competition (ie, Biffa come and collect YOUR waste on contract, rather than just a Council contracting out an in-house service). To charge VAT on a statutory service with no competition is a breach of EU law.

You mention Gordo and his cronies being exempt from VAT but statutory fines are outside the scope of VAT in EU law so speeding fines, court fines are all non-VAT - regardless of political persuasion, pensions funds are exempt from VAT, again, for everyone.

If you want to have a rant about Gordon, then I suggest you consider the imposition of zero rating in the UK which is a concession, which at some point will have to be recinded if a fair and level playing field is to be maintained across the EU and will means the imposition of VAT on basic foodstuffs, books and childrens clothing - just like the rest of Europe already do.