Some help required regarding employers

xlt_hunter

Hi all,

I would like some advice on how to solve this issue I have with my employer regarding "courses" and wages at this current time.

Right, in Sept 2004 I asked about courses to better meself that I could take via the company and was told that i could do a HNC via my employer - they coughed up £3,000 to the Uni to get me going on this course. Fair dos

A few weeks later I was told that should we leave the firm I would have to pay a % of the costs paid to the Uni back to the firm and they handed me a sheet with this information on and asked me to sign this - I didn't sign it as there is no course title or other agreement on the said form. I mentioned this as it wasn't said at the time of the meeting or when they paid the Uni the £3000. This fell on deaf ears like everything else seems to with this firm I am currently with.

Roll on August 2005 - The firm is hit with a major fire - my boss said it might be a good time to look for a new job.

Roll on Nov 2005 - I have had a job offer today (yippee), have informaly spoken to a collegue about this and he brought up the HCD and they said that I will have to pay back the costs for the course. Some or full I do not know at this time.

Now - This as got me going as I am not very happy as there is no "agreement" between myself and the employer regarding said course and said costs. I feel they are trying to trap me or blackmail me to stay in a poor wage job when everything seems to cost more in the last few months. Bear in mind they owe me in excess of £700 before Tax and NI for overtime and shift commission since the fire that they "didn't" pay in to my payslip last month as they promised..

Please I need help on how/what to do next!?

Thanks

Michael

Xbigman

If you never signed anything then I don't see that you have to pay anything back. Have you pointed this out to the wages dept (as opposed to your direct manager)?

It might be that you have to leave and argue about it later.

In practice the most they can do without taking you to court is with hold your last pay packet. So give the absolute minimum notice, preferably several days after your penultimate wages clear, and budget for no last wage packet.
Regards



X

xlt_hunter

Sorry, its £700 ontop of my basic salary for overtime etc.. I could use this as a tool to say, look I let them off with the extra overtime and premium but just pay my basic wage.

What doesn't really help is the fact I have to give 4 weeks notice - yet I work 4 weeks in arrears. I can If wanted to - walk now, but I don't want to be the nastly one but leave on "good" terms.

AndrewSmith

Hi,

Xbigman is totally correct. It is illegal for an employer to deduct any money from your wages (unless it is for time off, sickness etc-) without your written and signed consent. If they are implying that they will take it anyway you really need to take this up with, as Xbigman says, the payroll or HR manager at the firm.

Also check your contract of employment regarding payment terms and conditions for overtime / commissions. If they have not complied to this then they are in breach of contract, again this is not acceptable.

You should NOT have to stay in a job you do not wish to, they cannot hold back any monies owed to you as there is no agreement in place saying that you will repay any course fees to them.

Check out this website, you may find some useful guides here.

http://www.freelawyer.co.uk/idx/index.asp

Andy

xlt_hunter

Thank you - I have a great one now, if they are in breech of the contract then I have no need to work for said firm hence I do not need to give 4 weeks notice? correct? What is the best way to present this information - basiclly if my new employer said that he wants me to start in 2 weeks, I would like to be out of the door asap.

This is brilliant, thanks Andy - they are not going to be very pleased when the notice goes in.

xlt_hunter

Xbigman wrote:

If you never signed anything then I don't see that you have to pay anything back. Have you pointed this out to the wages dept (as opposed to your direct manager)?
X

It was pointed out, both to my boss and his boss. I will have to go to HR and another line of plan shortly.

M

Pennywise

The advice given re notice etc is spot on, as is the fact that they cannot with-hold monies from your wage.

However, I'm not as confident about the refund of course fees. They may not be able to deduct anything from your wages, but they could still claim the cost (or part) from you and make a claim through the County Court if you didn't pay them. A contract doesn't need to be in writing to be valid - verbal agreements can be just as enforceable as those written. As it is fairly standard practice for this type of "refund" agreement when courses are employer-sponsored, you may find the court takes the side of the employer, especially if they have recorded on your file that the matter of you repaying if you leave was discussed.

xlt_hunter

Pennywise wrote:

As it is fairly standard practice for this type of "refund" agreement when courses are employer-sponsored, you may find the court takes the side of the employer, especially if they have recorded on your file that the matter of you repaying if you leave was discussed.

No recorded at all - repaying said fees wasn't even mentioned at all until we started the said course - in a way this is entrapment.

Julienetmums

My parents took legal advice on this and were told that even if they got their employees to sign agreements to say they would pay back course fees if they left the company within a certain time, it could not be enforced.

A bit of a pain for them as they spend a lot of money putting people through the right qualifications for them to up and leave.

xlt_hunter

Update now as its getting very serious.

I am now in the process of looking for another job as I can not work for this firm who work like a bunch of monkeys in a peanut field!

I have overtime clocking up to the figure of 1 months salary for the extra done over xmas period - I yet to have this in my salary as its done in arrears - ie OT in Nov paid in end of Dec, they are now "withholding" my overtime payment to secure my signture for this course. More less told my manager in not so many word "no chance" They are using to my understanding finicial blackmail. When it mentioned again next week I will say that they are breaking the law - pay me my money owed or legel people will start getting involved.

jobbingmusician

OK, so the situation is this.

1. They cannot enforce you to repay your course fees, as they have no agreement in writing.

2. They cannot make unauthorised deductions from your final pay packet.

3. You feel that they have broken your contract by not paying your overtime promptly (is this correct?)

4. You would like to leave quite soon, without working a month's notice (again, this is what I think - is this correct?)

5. You have a large outstanding amount of overtime payment owing to you.

I think this case hinges on how good your paperwork is on the amount of overtime they owe you. If you have signed worksheets for your overtime, authorised by your manager, and your contract says that overtime will be paid in a timescale that they have broken, then you have a case for breach of contract and I believe that you can walk out and sue the hide off them. I would, however, take legal advice before doing this, even if it was just from the CAB.

Life being what it is, however, sod's law will probably mean that your documentation for your overtime is not as good as this. If so, you may have more of a problem. For example, if your overtime boils down to your word against theirs, I would take some time to get colleagues to document your overtime (maybe a sheet of paper saying 'I verify that xlt hunter was at work at the following dates/times' signed by your colleagues?) Basically anything you think would help your case if you were in court against your employers. Then WRITE to them to clarify why your o/t has been withheld and ask them to reply IN WRITING. Take the resulting paperwork to get legal advice.

I suspect that they will pay up rather than put anything in writing!

(And personally I would have no scruples about getting legal advice in work time).

All the above assumes you are not a member of a union - if you are, they should be sorting this out for you.

HTH!