DANGER - Online Shopping Can be Unsafe (Even with a credit card)

cressie176

greenwich wrote:

Not quite correct I think. Worldpay is a credit card service provided (by the Royal Bank of Scotland I think)

Yep, may have been wrong with regards to Worldpay.

If the furniture store lets you down, you are not covered by the CCA because you didn't pay them using your credit card.

Which is exactly what happened to me, and in the article referenced from the times.

Wrong. As realaledrinker says, your legal position is exactly the same whether you buy online or over the counter.

The difference is that when you buy something online you may end up going through a third party payment engine, like element5's. If the retailer (not element5) goes bust and you haven't received your goods, then you are unlikely to get your money back. It's much less likely for a shop to use a company like element5 to process payment, hence when you buy goods over the counter using a credit card, if the shop goes bust before you receive the goods you can apply to the credit card company for a refund.

My real bug bear with all this is that from the consumer's point of view there is no difference. I'm using my credit card to buy goods from a retailer, yet depending on details (location / 3rd party payment) of the transaction that I may be oblivious to, sometimes I'm protected and sometimes I'm not.

Galstonian

I think you are bit disingenuous. First you say that protection is even more important for online purchases because face to face you say you can inspect the goods then you tell us that your complaint is with software. How would you decide if it was suitable if you had purchased it over the counter? Also, you freely admit the software works, the problem is an incompatibity with something else on your system.

I agree that people should be made aware of the limitations of cover under the CCA but I completely disagree with your assertion that "Online Shopping Is Unsafe (Even with a Credit Card)". Shopping with a a credit card is safe online or offline provided you take the proper precautions and I'm afraid you didn't, I hope you will in future.

Just out of interest, why didn't you download and install the free trial version to see if it worked on your new setup before buying a license?

cressie176

Galstonian wrote:

I think you are bit disingenuous

Thanks for that.

Galstonian wrote:

First you say that protection is even more important for online purchases because face to face you say you can inspect the goods

Do you disagree?

Galstonian wrote:

then you tell us that your complaint is with software. How would you decide if it was suitable if you had purchased it over the counter?

In this case I couldn't. In the case of the concert tickets in the Times article I referenced you could.

Galstonian wrote:

Also, you freely admit the software works, the problem is an incompatibity with something else on your system.

No I don't. I didn't explain the detailed symptoms because it's irrelvant for the post. The firewall blocks certain appliations from connecting to the internet or even other applications running locally without providing an option to enable them. It's a known fault with the product, experienced by other users who have also reported similar experiences on the Agnitum forum.

Galstonian wrote:

Shopping with a a credit card is safe online or offline provided you take the proper precautions and I'm afraid you didn't, I hope you will in future.

I disagree. Shopping on the high street with a credit card is much safer than shopping online because of the inconsistencies regarding location and 3rd party payment engines.

Galstonian wrote:

Just out of interest, why didn't you download and install the free trial version to see if it worked on your new setup before buying a license?

I wish I had done and normally I would. I even have a testbed running in something called VMWARE. The reason I skipped this step is because I had been using the product (a slightly earlier version) on another PC for years with no issue. Even if I had done, there is nothing to stop an update/patch breaking it in future. All I orginally asked Agnitum for was a free two month extension to the 2 year software license to compensate for the two months that I had been unable to use their software. There are plenty of very good free firewalls out there so I don't think I am wrong to expect a company to provide a reasonable level of support when you do decide to buy their software, rather than use a free alternative or install a pirate copy.

I conceed that I was naive to expect my creidt card company to refund the payment, which is why I posted on moneysavingexpert - to warn other naive people that shopping online with a credit card does not give you the same level of protection as it does over the counter. If I had purchased the software from PCWorld (and providing it had cost over £100), my credit card company would have refunded the payment. Because I bought the software online and unwittingly used a third party payment system, they did not.

greenwich

Cressie,

Welcome to MSE! It's nice to see a newcomer actually using their first post to try to help others instead of just asking for information before disappearing forever. We're not trying to have a go at you but I think we will have to agree to disagree. What you said in your first post about the limitations of the CCA protection is correct; it's just that many of us think you drew the wrong conclusion in saying that the problems are worse online. However, there's no point in repeating ourselves now.

Galstonian

cressie176 wrote:

If I had purchased the software from PCWorld (and providing it had cost over £100), my credit card company would have refunded the payment. Because I bought the software online, they did not.

You really are twisted! If you bought it online and it cost over £100 and you used your credit card (not some third party payment system) you would have just as much cover, possibly more because of distance selling regulations.

Since you seem technically minded:

IF ((purchase < £100) OR
(payment is not made directly with credit card) OR
(purchase is made overseas))
THEN
No protection is offered under the CCA
ELSE
Credit card issuer is jointly liable with the retailer
END IF

n.b No mention of online.

I agree that better warnings could be published about what is covered and what is not but you are just spreading misinformation and scaremongering.

Beware of:
- systems that do not take direct card payments
- credit card systems that don't use encryption
- purchasing goods from sites based overseas
- retailers who do not offer a money back guarantee

cressie176

greenwich wrote:

Cressie,

Welcome to MSE! It's nice to see a newcomer actually using their first post to try to help others instead of just asking for information before disappearing forever. We're not trying to have a go at you but I think we will have to agree to disagree. What you said in your first post about the limitations of the CCA protection is correct; it's just that many of us think you drew the wrong conclusion in saying that the problems are worse online. However, there's no point in repeating ourselves now.

Cheers greenwich.

cressie176

Galstonian wrote:

You really are twisted!

Once again, thanks.

Galstonian wrote:

If you bought it online and it cost over £100 and you used your credit card (not some third party payment system) you would have just as much cover, possibly more because of distance selling regulations.

And unless Joe Consumer is aware of the problem do you think he'll differentiate between an unprotected payment system like Element5 or a safe one such a WorldPay? Maybe you could post some more pseudo code that will show him how to work it out, but I think you'd be wasting your time. From Joe Consumer's point of view the majority of payment systems behave in exactly the same way - you type in your CC details and click submit. He doesn't have to make this distinction when he visits the high street.

carpy

hi

i recently purchased a used item off ebay which arrrived damaged in the post. i paid with my morgan stanley card through paypal.

what i want to know is have i got any 'protection' from morgan stanley?

thanks

Galstonian

You might but it is unlikely, MS have paid the money to Paypal as they agreed to.

It is probably better to try in the following order:

- the seller
- ebay and paypal
- Morgan Stanley

Mst reputable ebay sellers are quite keen to resolve problems amicably.

cressie176

For once Galstonian and I are in agreement. If you don't get any joy from the seller try the following links.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/confidence/purchase-protection.html
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_pbp-info-outside