Help: A buyer who says he hasn't recieved the item

masonic

lapat wrote:

you have a private message

Sorry lapat, but there are only two reasonable excuses I can think of for posting advice in a PM:

1) The advice explictly contravenes the rules of this site, being either illegal, immoral etc.

2) The advice would be ridiculed by the regulars who post in the group.

If neither of the above are true, please accept my most humble apologies, but remember that by withholding your comments from the rest of the group, you may discourage people from helping you in the future.

Contains_Mild_Peril

dandydeels wrote:

A warning from me about paypal-

I just found out the hard way that even when you send items abroad - with trackable international signed for (Royal Mail) its not even safe. As the Royal Mail international trackable system doesn't show item delivered- it just states passed into the hands of an overseas operator. This isn't proof enough for paypal and they found in the favour of the Japanese claimant- 900 pounds.!!

This ruined my cashfllow- literally wiped me out -as i had just clawed my way back up and had paid off a lot of debts the previous week. I am only just recovering from the mayhem this caused- 3 months later- - as payapl shut down my account- i couldn't receive hundreds of pounds owed by other people etc. Their full t&c's regarding this are below. I am now not accepting paypal- yes i will lose out a bit- but a lot of people have online banking these days and can transfer straight into your bank account. yes , its a pain, but one i am now prepared to live with. Paypal were unhelpful, shoddy and in the case of a customer services agent from the states- arrogant.

I guess you have to get bitten to know that bites hurt.... please don't get bitten.

paypals email

> For resolution, we need one of the following:
>
> 1. A valid tracking number that can be tracked online through the
> shipping
> company's website, showing merchandise posted to the buyer's confirmed
> address. For transactions equal to Ł150 GBP (or the equivalent in the
> currency of the transaction) or more in value, you will also need to
> provide an online proof-of-receipt in the form of a signature from the
> recipient. If the dispute reason of any dispute listed above is Not as
> Described, it cannot be resolved with proof of delivery, as the buyer is
> not disputing receipt of the merchandise. For resolution of these
> disputes,
> the buyer must contact PayPal directly to cancel the dispute, or a full
> refund must be issued.
>
> 2. Direct confirmation from the buyer that the merchandise or a refund
> has
> been received.
>
> If you are unable to provide the information listed above, the buyer must
> be refunded. To resolve your dispute(s) with a refund, you will need to
> fund your PayPal account with the full transaction currency amount.

Eek! Are they really saying that a buyer who alleges the item is not as described can claim a full refund no questions asked, without even having to return the item? So even signed-for delivery does not protect the seller?

masonic

Contains_Mild_Peril wrote:

Eek! Are they really saying that a buyer who alleges the item is not as described can claim a full refund no questions asked, without even having to return the item? So even signed-for delivery does not protect the seller?

What you quoted refers to an item that could not be proven delivered. As you know, proof of delivery is required to dispute a paypal chargeback. AIUI, Airsure is the way to go with international deliveries, but bleugh and Hintza would be better off advising you on this.

On the subject of "not as described" claims, paypal will not fight credit card chargebacks for this at all, but the item must be returned. You should never be in the situation where you have no goods and no money, but of course those who really know how to work the system can leave you that way.

Contains_Mild_Peril

masonic wrote:

What you quoted refers to an item that could not be proven delivered.

Actually it was this bit that particularly alarmed me:

If the dispute reason of any dispute listed above is Not as
> Described, it cannot be resolved with proof of delivery, as the buyer is
> not disputing receipt of the merchandise. For resolution of these
> disputes,
> the buyer must contact PayPal directly to cancel the dispute, or a full
> refund must be issued.

masonic wrote:

On the subject of "not as described" claims, paypal will not fight credit card chargebacks for this at all, but the item must be returned. You should never be in the situation where you have no goods and no money, but of course those who really know how to work the system can leave you that way.

That's what concerns me.

bleugh

Dandy, to send international, you have to use AIRSURE, (Costs an extra £4.50) that covers around 28 countries,
delivery outside of those countries won't be covered.

AIRSURE provides proof of delivery (you can request a signature copy if you like apparently!)

If the buyer is in one of the other 100 or so countries on the planet, you have to use some form of courier, Fedex/UPS/AMTRAX, though this usually means that, with postage, your item becomes uncompetitive and won't sell, or when 'won', the buyer will usually pull out, as they never realised tyhe post costs (a favourite of americans that one ;-)

Also, bear in mind, in theory, paypal's insurance only covers UK / USA / CANADA transactions, so they've got you by the danglies whichever way you look

Personally, i wont take paypal for larger amounts of money (i've made some exceptions, and will continue to do so, but only if things 'feel' right)

The whole paypal 'Items not significantly as described' process scares the bejeezus out of me, from various forums that i've read, it seems that unsrupulous buyers can interpret this as

'get a free item AND your money back'. i'll admit, I don't know exactly how the process works (not been stung yet),

I can imagine that it requires the seller to make a leap of faith and refund the money, requesting the buyer to return the item. the buyer then clears their account, closes it down and walks away with the item and the money
- even if paypal ruled in favour of the seller, they wont recover money that is not in the buyers account, so, basically, the seller looses again :-(

Yes, there are honest buyers out there, but for many (such as our japanese friend out there) the ability to be receiving large amounts of money or expensive goods, in the post, for minimal outlay (free!) and little effort is too tempting, contact the police there AND CHASE THIS, you will find that they are fairly helpful!



TOO MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE CASH IN PAYPAL and CASH IN YOUR POCKET ARE THE SAME :-(

infact, paypal is the equivalent of the rubberiest material in which you can write a cheque on, it's too easy for payments to bounce, and people are NOT made aware of that fact clearly enough :-(



fair enough for ebay/paypal for trying to provide an integrated service, but when someone's able to leave POSITIVE feedback and still make a claim for non-delivery/not as described, then something is fundementally wrong :-(

Newbird

Paypal are the pits.
check out https://www.pppay.com.
Can take international payments in $s and Euro's.

I've used Recorded Int signed for before on paypal transactions abroad, but won't do again! I only use PPal as a last resort now.
PPPay are run by the FSA, no chargebacks, and cheaper fees than Paypal anyway, only fees incurred if a credit card is used.

Bargainbabe_2

Gawd Dandy Heels, that is truly a horror story. Sorry to hear you lost so much money

Dazza.mk_2

#3 You are correct as far as you go, however the transaction must be eligible for the Seller Protection Policy - If this isn't the case you can send it by Special Delivery, DHL or armed guard and if the recipient says they didn't receive it Paypal will still find in their favour..

There is no 100% rule as to what is eligible, but you can put a disclaimer in your payment terms that you will only accept payment from verified accounts with confirmed addresses (otherwise you will refund the payment), although the safer option is probably not to offer PPal altogether

masonic

Dazza.mk wrote:

#3 You are correct as far as you go, however the transaction must be eligible for the Seller Protection Policy - If this isn't the case you can send it by Special Delivery, DHL or armed guard and if the recipient says they didn't receive it Paypal will still find in their favour..

If a seller can prove delivery to the address supplied by paypal, then they will not lose a paypal chargeback for goods not received, SPP or no SPP. The only difference being qualified for the SPP makes to paypal chargebacks is that paypal do not put a temporary hold on the funds in your account during the investigation (apparently).

However, in the case of credit card chargebacks, if paypal cannot successfully dispute the chargeback, the seller would not be protected (they would also incur a £7 fee as a result of the chargeback, whether it is successfully disputed or not) unless they were covered by the SPP.

See this page for details of the SPP.

bobdauilda

sounds like Paypal need to get their act together to sort this situation out. Having read the above comments I think I will use a different service for my payments. Any top favourites??