Solar panels, ground heat pumps and wood-burning stoves

brownfrog

I'd be grateful for any opinions on these, please. With the utility bills rising through the roof, we're considering alternative methods. Problem is, they all seem very expensive, and we don't want to make the wrong decision

First, solar panels. From the big thread that everyone's recommended to read, it seems these generally are a bit of a waste of money. Is that still the opinion? What kind of price might be considered a justifiable investment? I was quoted round about £6K from several companies - now they seem to be around £4K. This will obviously mainly heat water. Anyone know if it can also be used to heat radiators?

Second, ground heat pumps. These used to mean massive garden with huge loop, but it now seems possible to have these installed as pillars of coils (sort of like those coiled garden hoses standing upright), which are also more efficient. Opinions on the possible value of these?

Third, wood-burning stoves. Problem here is we have a modern house with no chimney :rolleyes: so it means actually building a flue plus chimney and bashing through a fireplace (room just is not big enough for a free-standing stove so that cuts out just having a stainless steel flue, which is obviously cheaper, although I doubt planning would allow it anyway). This would heat at least half the house, and I believe could also be used to heat the water, but at even more expense. Cost without this would be about £8000-10,000.

I'm finding it really depressing that we have quite high bills, yet every allternative seems to be even more expensive! And of course, the government are doing very little to help - £400 grant for solar, which isn't exactly a big hole in the cost.

savemoney

Forget solar the payback is too long 10+ years maybe less if fuel goes up I hear there is more efficient panels coming out in next few years
Ground pumps need a lot of space to lay the pipes and they last about 10 years from what I have read
Wood burning stoves about 2k to install and around £200-£300 tops for Winter for seasoned wood from say Sept-April, Free wood you can get also

CFC

How about an air heat pump/inverter?

Ken68

CFC wrote: »

How about an air heat pump/inverter?

Doesn't work so well, CFC., in our climate. There is a current thread running on this in Gas and Electric board.

mrs_baggins

dont forget to check with local authority though to see if you are in a smokeless zone or not! sadly I am cos I would love a log burning stove. There are appliances you can have even if you are in a sfz but they are a lot more expensive and a lot of them are to burn a particular type of product only. theres a link here if anyone is interested http://www.airquality.co.uk/archive/smoke_control/index.php

martindow

Solar (PV) panels have a long payback period and until there is a system as in Germany where electricity suppliers have to pay a good price to take surplus electricity or the cost of panels comes down they are hard to justify.

Solar hot water heating is a different matter and has a much shorter payback period.

liitleblackcat

We have had solar water heating put in 3 months ago for £3250 + VAT (at 5%) and got the £400 grant back within weeks. I would say that the payback is likely to be quite long, but that wasn't the whole reason for doing it. In any case, the price of fossil fuels is going to go up and up in the long run - they stopped making it about 200 million years ago and I don't see a short term answer to what we do when it starts to run out.

I also looked at a ground source heat pump about 3 years ago when we replaced our CH boiler and I now wish we had done it then. The cost was quite prohibitive at the time (even with the clear skies grant). If I were doing the same thing now I would definitely go for it - with an auger drill to make the holes and a reinforced concrete pile arrangement to put the pipes in.

Of course it depends on what you can afford and how far into the future you are looking. Have we already passed peak oil? How long before we have a hydrogen-based fuel system? How will we heat our homes when oil and gas are too expensive?

brownfrog

Thanks for these, folks.

savemoney wrote: »

I hear there is more efficient panels coming out in next few years
Ground pumps need a lot of space to lay the pipes and they last about 10 years from what I have read

That's interesting. Maybe we should wait till then.
We do actually have the space - we've a very big garden - but as it happens, the vertical drilling means you don't need the space any more. The guarantee can be up to 25 years, depending on the system.

mrs_baggins wrote: »

dont forget to check with local authority though to see if you are in a smokeless zone or not!

AFAIK, we're not, and other houses in the estate (built by a different and better builder) do have chimneys, but good point! I'll give the council a ring tomorrow.

martindow wrote: »

Solar hot water heating is a different matter and has a much shorter payback period.

It would be water heating. We've been quoted figures of around half our leccy/gas bill (£1000), which would then give a payback period of 8 years. Does this sound feasible?

liitleblackcat wrote: »

We have had solar water heating put in 3 months ago for £3250 + VAT (at 5%) and got the £400 grant back within weeks. I would say that the payback is likely to be quite long, but that wasn't the whole reason for doing it. In any case, the price of fossil fuels is going to go up and up in the long run - they stopped making it about 200 million years ago and I don't see a short term answer to what we do when it starts to run out.

When you say you got the £400 grant back, do you mean you got the grant cheque, or the system paid that much for itself? BTW, that sounds like a good price. Would you be able to give the name of the company, please?

liitleblackcat wrote: »

I also looked at a ground source heat pump about 3 years ago when we replaced our CH boiler and I now wish we had done it then. The cost was quite prohibitive at the time (even with the clear skies grant). If I were doing the same thing now I would definitely go for it - with an auger drill to make the holes and a reinforced concrete pile arrangement to put the pipes in..

Yes, that's exactly the sort of one we were looking at. It is expensive, but so is putting on a chimney!

liitleblackcat wrote: »

Of course it depends on what you can afford and how far into the future you are looking. Have we already passed peak oil? How long before we have a hydrogen-based fuel system? How will we heat our homes when oil and gas are too expensive?

Well, exactly. If it's going to rise by 60%, suddenly all these things start to look very attractive. But what if the price goes down again? Or everyone starts buying these systems so their prices go down? Oh for a crystal ball!

liitleblackcat

Hi brownfrog
The grant is from the Energy Savings Trust (see http://www.lowcarbonbuildings.org.uk/how/householders/) and is £400 for solar water heating. There are a few hoops to go through but none too difficult. We used a company called Llani Solar (http://www.llanisolar.co.uk/), based in Llanidloes, Powys (because we live in Shropshire), but we had 3 quotes from other companies as well and Llani were the lowest, and were good when they came to do the survey.

On the price of fuel, I very much doubt that we will ever go back to the days of oil at $20 (or even $100) a barrel. It is going up in real terms every year from now on and gas and electricity will follow. The main cost of renewable heating systems is in the time to build them so they should only increase in line with normal inflation. I doubt if they will drop in price.

Go for it!

thor

liitleblackcat wrote: »

On the price of fuel, I very much doubt that we will ever go back to the days of oil at $20 (or even $100) a barrel. It is going up in real terms every year from now on and gas and electricity will follow. The main cost of renewable heating systems is in the time to build them so they should only increase in line with normal inflation. I doubt if they will drop in price.

Go for it!

I second that opinion. Despite the high costs if you can afford it it will be worth getting any kind of renewable that is not dependant on fossil fuels. Oil and gas is only a few years away from running out and will only increase in costs. Wind and solar will really take off in this country if it was emphasised that the main reason to support them is not to control global warming but that they will be a neccessity in domestic energy production.