Need help with my dog

monkeychops

I have a 6 year old russian black male. He was socialised as a puppy with people and dogs. He needs a lot of exercise and I have always taken him to a park to let him have a good run and play with other dogs. He always got on well with all dogs big and small. One morning about 18 months ago he was funny to a female labrador that he had met tons of times before. He did not bite her but he barked and snarled at her (it sounded awful) and she cried in fright. I was really upset and apologised to the other owner. I put his lead on him and took him home as I did not know what else to do.

Since then he has been funny to other dogs but there is no pattern whatsoever. He can be fine for weeks and then suddenly have a go at a dog or maybe 2 or 3 dogs in one day.

So far he has seen 3 behaviourists. The first one said he was not an aggressive dog. He made me walk my dog into a room full of strange dogs and my dog just laid down. He said an aggressive dog would never lay down with strange dogs around. He thought for some reason I was anxious and transferring that to my dog.

The second behaviourist I went to for about 6 months. Every week my dog and other dogs would run round a field. Some weeks he would be good, some weeks he would not. I stopped going because I did not feel that any good was coming of it.

The third one said that there is a pattern I just have not worked it out yet. She said there was no point in taking my money as she could do nothing - it was up to me. I told her I had kept a diary writing everything down (I mean everything) from what the dog ate, what I ate, how I felt, the weather, the time etc etc and definitely could not see a pattern. If it was because I was transferring my anxiety to him why is it that sometimes when I feel anxious that he may have a go at a dog he does not?

Anyway, on her recommendation I started to muzzle him. At least I know he cannot hurt a dog although he has never actually bitten a dog just makes a hell of a lot of noise but it is over in a matter of seconds and then often he will play with that dog. I hate muzzling him. Most people now think he is vicious. The brown muzzle on his black face stands out a mile and looks awful. Also I am worried if a dog has a go at him he cannot defend himself.

He had been ok for quite a while. I even took him on holiday and he met loads of strange dogs and was fine and played with some of them.

Then last Sunday I was sitting with OH and our dog having a coffee in a park. Our dog suddenly jumped up snarling and barking and lunged at a dog and owner walking by. I had not seen the other dog as they came up behind me so there is no way I could have transferred any feelings to my dog.

This morning I took him to the park. I am taking him much earlier than normal as it is too hot at our normal time. There were loads of dogs and owners we had never met before. He was muzzled and was fine with most of the dogs but one labrador and a boxer he was funny to. He could not do anything because of the muzzle but the owners were annoyed and one had a go at me. I can see his point of view but I got very upset and ended up coming home in tears. Walking him is no longer a pleasant experience. I spend the time looking for other dogs. Even if I street walk him (and this is just no where near enough exercise for him) he sometimes barks at other dogs and tries to jump around on his lead. He is a big strong dog and I do have trouble controlling him when he does this. He barks really loudly and sounds so ferocious I just find it enbarrassing. Again he can see the same dogs and be fine and then another day he will bark at one.

I have read endless articles on the internet, watched all the dog shows on tv, read books and I just do not know what to do. He is an obedient dog and does as he is told and certainly is not dominant over me.

I should add that he can also do this when my husband is walking him so it is not just me!

I am sorry this is so long but I am now feeling desperate. Can anyone give me any ideas or help? He is worse when he is in places he knows (so may be territorial?) but again that is not always the case.

I should also add that he has had a medical check and the vet could not find anything wrong with him.

user55

I don't know the answer to your problem but I sympathise with the attitude people have to a muzzled dog - I muzzle my dog because he's a rescue and I can't be 100% certain of his reactions in all situations yet. He's a gentle boy though and I'm pretty damn sure! But I always get asked if he's a biter, and mothers hurry their kids away from him which makes me very sad.

I have heard great things about Tellington Touch http://www.ttouchtteam.co.uk/ but have no experience of it myself. I don't know if this is something you've looked at?

Good luck. Reassure yourself that by muzzling him you are being responsible, while you try to work through the issues.

JennyW_2

Hi there. i symphathise with the muzzle thing. My grey has one on sometimes and it too annoys me with the way people look at me. I cant believe someone had a go at you :mad:

I cant help on behavioural issues but there is a good doggie forum where you will get lots of help and advice :

https://www.dogpages.org.uk

pboae

Given the unpredictability of it, I would go back to the vet and ask them to look again. My gut reaction is to agree with the 3rd behaviourist, there probably is a pattern or a trigger, and you just haven't found it yet. If it is medical it will be very hard for you to spot it.

Also, just because your dog lay down in a room full of dogs that doesn't mean it is not aggressive. I have seen *very* aggressive dogs do similar when they are overwhelmed with the number of other dogs there, yet still be absolutely vicious in a one-to-one situation. It's quite odd for a dog to lie down in a room full of strange dogs though. But without knowing *how* he lay down, it's hard to say what was going on.

Having said the RBT don't have the best reputation for temprement, especially when it comes to being unpredicatable with other dogs. Are you in contact with a breed club at all? It could be that this is something other owners of your breed will have come across.

I'd also second user55's suggestion of T-Touch, I was really dubious about it at first (and am still slightly skeptical about the theory behind it) but having seen how effective it can be, I can't deny that it works.

Raksha

I wouldn't see a dog like this as a case without having a complete vet check done, including blood tests for thyroid problems. Thyroid deficiency can cause aggression as well as a lot of other sympton (or not) and is one of the first things that needs to be ruled out.

JoeyDoll

Hi
I'm sorry to hear of your situation it must be dreadful for you. Just a couple of thoughts.

I agree with Raksha I think he need a vet check done first to rule out any medical problems.

Did his situation arise from a difficult encounter with another dog which has made him defensive and develop fear aggression? Perhaps a labrador as you mention he is not as tolerant with this breed on a few occasions.

Has you dog been castrated, this brings about conflicting views however if your dog has dominance aggresion then castration would probably help.

About him barking on a lead, this could be two things. One he is fearful and therefore barks as a warning but the other thing is perhaps he is frustrated being on the lead when he sees another dog and simply want to play which is why he barks and pulls etc.

To stop you could try a treat to distract him and reward him for good behaviour or the alternative is to check him with a light but firm touch and a noise to distract him so he know he is doing a behaviour you do not agree with (I am not talking about hurting or smacking him I just mean to touch him so he is distracted).

The other thing is have you tried jogging with him as this would wear him out a little quicker and as he is moving quicker he is less likely to be distracted by other dogs.

The other suggestion is to excercise him so he is quite tired and then let him play with other dogs so he is less excitable.

Good luck and please don't get yourself upset by other dog owners. You are obviously a good owner and adore your dog as you wouldn't have seeked help otherwise. From what you have said I really beleive your dog is a good dog really and once this problem is over he will be a pleasure to walk again.

Best wishes

monkeychops

Thank you for the replies. I would like to answer some of your questions.

Firstly, my dog has been castrated. He has had a fairly thorough medical check but not for thyroid. The vet said as he was showing no other signs she could see no reason for it as it is expensive. Perhaps I should insist on having it done?

A labrador did have a go at him when he was on his lead and this may explain why he is not keen on labs but he can be ok to a certain lab day after day and then suddenly "not like them"! Also he is funny to other breeds with no obvious pattern. He has been funny to males and females and although it is usually large dogs, he has been funny to small ones to (the owners of the small dogs have, in particular, given me a lot of grief). He does often seem to have a problem with entire males but again not always or he will be fine with one and then suddenly be funny to them.

Sometimes when he barks and pulls on his lead it does seem as though he just wants to play with the other dog - he sometimes even does a play bow. Other times (even with the same dog) it sounds much more aggressive. It can be difficult to tell because when playing he is a pretty vocal dog.

I have tried taking treats with me and when we see another dog distracting him and giving him a treat but it is a bit hit and miss. Sometimes it seems to work and other times it does not (again even with the same dogs).

He has been funny to other dogs even after a couple of hours running so is fairly tired although it is very difficult to tire him out. I don't really fancy jogging. I did not like jogging on my own and jogging with a dog on a lead does not appeal to me at all (sorry).

Sometimes I think if he was aggressive to all dogs in some ways it would be easier for me. I would know that he was going to react and I would also always muzzle him. At the moment I do not muzzle him whilst walking round the streets, only when we get to the park and I let him off. I hate him being muzzled and he does not seem keen on it. Also on the couple of occasions he has been muzzled in the street (when I first started to use a muzzle I made him wear it at all times out of the house) people cross the road to avoid us, particularly if they have children. I heard mothers saying "don't go near that dog he is vicious" and it upset me. He loves people and children and has never ever been funny to them. He loves being stroked especially by children.

This morning on the way to the park there was a man with a black lab. It was not on a lead and was running around the pavement. I just felt that I could not risk it running up to my dog and had to do a massive detour to avoid them. It made me feel upset and angry that I have to do things like that.

Pboae, you may be right that there is a pattern but I just cannot work one out. As I said, I kept a diary for months, writing everything down and I mean everything!!! What I ate, what my dog ate, the weather, the time of day, how I felt (one behavourist said it may be my hormones affecting him) etc etc. I guess if it is medical it is going to be very difficult to spot a pattern. I would say that when he hurt his leg a while ago he was never funny to a dog.

I just feel so depressed about it. I have read so many articles, read dog forums, spoken to many people, spoken to 2 vets, seen 3 behavourists, watched all the dog programmes on tv. I just don't know what to do next.

orlao

Hi

Just to say while I don't have any ideas to help,that as far as I can see you are doing all the right things.....making sure that your dog can't hurt another dog by muzzling him, really working to try and find a reason and all those other things you're doing.

Please don't take any notice of the people who react badly to your dog, it really is THEIR problem not yours as you are keeping your dog under control and trying to resolve the issues that your boy has.

Best of luck

O x

suki1964

(((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))

I know how you feel because my Alfie (ECS) is just as bad and in fact did do damage to a mastiff when he was a youngster.

I too found myself checking out the park before going in and making detours. I know how dreadful you feel and how its affecting how you feel about owning him.

Reasons/solutions - I have none Like you went the behaviourist route and they were stumped as 99% of the time hes fine around other dogs. Had him castrated to ease up on the testosterone - didnt work.

The one thing I worked on was his obedience. Hes not brilliant still (and hes four) but I can get him to concentrate on me which I get him to do if I see any likely problem ahead - if hes busy with me he will ignore other dogs(I always have a ball in my pocket as its his sure fire attention grabber) I can also get him to come back and sit. Using those methods we have kept out of trouble.

With him I think its a case of hes very human orientated and just doesn't like other dogs and if one looks at him funny its enough for him to give off. Young entire males are the worse, older ones and pups tend to be ignored unless they get too close to his rear end. !!!!!es as a whole hes fine around - as long as he can do the going up to and is able to get away as well,

Oh and I did get a muzzle at first but stopped using it as I got more confident with his commands and obedience.

Perhaps you wont ever get to the bottom of whats happening for yours but working on his training will really boost how you feel about taking him out

Raksha

I don't think Russian Blacks as a breed are known for their sociability with other dogs anyway, and although he was socialised as a puppy, it doesn't stop there, socialisation should be a continuous process.

I would work on teaching him what you *do* want him to do when he sees another dog, and with my Springer that is 'sit' and 'watch me'. Try training these things before you go out, and slowly build up the distractions. Randomly ask him to do it when there aren't any dogs any where, so he gets used to doing it when you ask, without questions too.

Good luck, they are a magnificent breed.

rnr1975

Hi Monkeychops,

Your dog is so lucky, you sound such a wonderful and lovely person.

Bless you, you poor thing, you are doing everything possible to manage and overcome this problem. Keep going with your gut and don’t let other dog owners sway you. It can only be their own ignorance that causes them to act that way.

We have a rescue Rottie with fear aggression towards a lot, especially other dogs and we used to muzzle him at the park after a horrible incident that was our fault. With the muzzle on, most people gave us a wide birth and we were glad of that. Our baby is a big boy and hard to control when scared. But now, we just go for avoidance and walk in less used areas.

I only have one thought with regards to your dogs trigger, could it be the owners? Our dog can spot a chav a mile off and hates them, due to where we used to live. Dog or no dog he will get defensive. The only other guaranteed time our dog goes nuts is when he needs a poo, he has quite a ritual unless free to do his thing. I wish I had the answer for you.

Can I recommend Ttouch to you, please do check out the website for your closest help. http://www.ttouchtteam.co.uk/CAPrac.html Monkeychops, you will love it, it is just so hands on and really good bonding with your babe. We had our first session some 2 weeks ago and we are seeing improvement. We went to Marie Miller, who has such love for dogs and helped us tackle the real problem from the beginning of our session. Unlike when we tried barkbusters and they avoided the problem and taught us other useless stuff.

At the moment we are trying Ttouch, obedience and trying to be pack leaders, it is tough and when it doesn’t work, it does make me cry. I feel such a failure, so I really can feel your pain and depression. But at the end of the day, these feelings come from love for your boy. With that much love, you have so much inner strength and you will keep going till you get there.