Any one got any experience of this one...

EthanM

geordie_joe wrote: »

As you know I am not an agent now so couldn't take part. You try to make the bet knowing I will have to decline as I can't take part, just so you can claim you won.

If you are willing to bet, and lose £10,000 then you will be willing to send me £125 so I can join Kleeneze again and take part in your bet.

I can PM you my email address and will join just as soon as the money is in my paypal account.

I flatly refuse to join anyones downline.



I didn't say that, what I said was people who do order soon realise the stuff is over priced and stop ordering. I never mentioned stopping delivering catalogues to them, although I did mention most people stop delivering the catalogues when their orders dry up.



Just send me the £125, I'm ready and waiting.



No it's not silly, their are people in other threads saying things like "I made £30 commission my first week. I put out 100 books and got 89 back, have ordered another 100 books" They claim to have made £30 but we know they have paid at least £75 to join and paid for a further 100 books, so, so far they are not in profit.

In short, all the people who support Kleeneze tell us how much commission they get but cleverly avoid telling us what they pay out.



I still don't have the prices, go on, forget what they taught you in the seminars and let us know the true cost of being a Kleeneze agent.



I'm up for it, just waiting for the money.

As yu full well know I didn't suggest you needed to be the one to deliver the books and as such you don't need to join Kleeneze.

I can give you a list of areas you choose one and I'll provide the info showing which houses are customers and which are not, ( you can knock any doors you want to check ) then we drop the books and see who is correct.

I could just as easily show you over a hundred customers local to me that have regularily ordered for years. Whatever way you prefer. Of course first we need to get it legally drawn up.

It seems obvious to me that you don't understand the Kleeneze system, so if you did join them it was for a very short time. The system which you would know if you were part of it involves dropping catalogues in for example a street, taking the orders and delivering them. This is done say 5 times, after this point all the houses that have not done an order are removed from the list. Now you only deliver to houses that have ordered. The reason that this is done is that in general the houses that have ordered keep ordering and the houses that haven't ordered, probably won't.

So the whole system is based around narrowing the houses down to a much smaller number. Kleeneze agents that have been with Kleeneze for any length of time keep delivering books to the same few hundred customers.

As to your comment about costs, I clearly answered you. I told you the cost. I can't possibly answer ongoing costs because it varies drastically depending on how many books are being put out and whether it's to customer base or blanket dropping.

Right now the cost is £15 for a set of 50 main catalogues plus the other smaller catalogues and order forms. Not sure if it includes bags.

So are you up for this bet?

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

As yu full well know I didn't suggest you needed to be the one to deliver the books and as such you don't need to join Kleeneze.

But if I'm not an agent I can't get the books, and if you think I'm delivering your books you need your head read!

EthanM wrote: »

I could just as easily show you over a hundred customers local to me that have regularily ordered for years. Whatever way you prefer. Of course first we need to get it legally drawn up.

I prefer this, but all I must be able to verify them and none of them must be related to you or work colleagues of friends.

EthanM wrote: »

It seems obvious to me that you don't understand the Kleeneze system, so if you did join them it was for a very short time. The system which you would know if you were part of it involves dropping catalogues in for example a street, taking the orders and delivering them. This is done say 5 times, after this point all the houses that have not done an order are removed from the list. Now you only deliver to houses that have ordered. The reason that this is done is that in general the houses that have ordered keep ordering and the houses that haven't ordered, probably won't.

I do understand it, but my point, and many others who have tried it is the customers DON'T keep ordering. The stuff in the Kleeneze catalogue is over priced rubbish and they soon realise this and stop buying from it.

EthanM wrote: »

So the whole system is based around narrowing the houses down to a much smaller number. Kleeneze agents that have been with Kleeneze for any length of time keep delivering books to the same few hundred customers.

No, the system is based around getting someone to part with their joining fee and telling them to keep going for a few weeks so you get commission from them.

EthanM wrote: »

As to your comment about costs, I clearly answered you. I told you the cost.

No you didn't, I asked several times how much the catalogues cost and you ingored the question until I put it in big red letters. Then you replied that your downline give agents the books free until they are earning a decent amount. At no time did you supply me with the price you pay for the catalogues.

EthanM wrote: »

Right now the cost is £15 for a set of 50 main catalogues plus the other smaller catalogues and order forms. Not sure if it includes bags.

At last, you finally answer the question, £15 for a set of 50 main catalogues. OK, so now I know the person in the other thread, who made £30 commission then bought 100 more books didn't actually make any profit in his first week. Can't remember his exact figures but I think he got 85 books back from the first 100 he put out and on his second attempt he put out 80 books and got back 39.

We never heard from him after that. Perhaps he gave up, or maybe he is still trying to get his other books back. Whatever, he started with 100 books and after two drops he's now only got 44.

And despite the fact that you replied congratulating him on getting £120 worth of orders on his first drop of 100 books it was actually from 2 drops. The first drop got him £80 of orders and the second drop got him £40 worth of orders. But that was about two weeks ago and he hasn't been back to tell us what he made from his next drops.

This fits in with what I, and many others who have tried it say. Some people order, maybe even twice, but they soon stop ordering and the number of orders you get goes down until you have none and give up.

EthanM wrote: »

So are you up for this bet?

Yes but I chose the you providing a list of over 100 customers who have bought regularly for years.

EthanM

Originally Posted by EthanM
As you full well know I didn't suggest you needed to be the one to deliver the books and as such you don't need to join Kleeneze.

you replied

But if I'm not an agent I can't get the books, and if you think I'm delivering your books you need your head read!

How can I have a rational conversation with a person that either chooses to ignore or else is incapable of understanding basic English.
Not only have I not said I want you to deliver books, I've specifically said that you wouldn't need to deliver books. You are not a Kleeneze agent it could not possibly be you.

You then said:

No, the system is based around getting someone to part with their joining fee and telling them to keep going for a few weeks so you get commission from them.

Really? Is that so. How much commision do you think I'd make by getting someone to join and doing a few weeks and then leaving? I'll tell you, 0, nothing, nada. It just shows your complete ignorance of how it all works. Yet you speak as if your an authority. It's such a shame that some people will believe people like you.

Again, you said:

No you didn't, I asked several times how much the catalogues cost and you ingored the question until I put it in big red letters. Then you replied that your downline give agents the books free until they are earning a decent amount. At no time did you supply me with the price you pay for the catalogues.

Now I tried to ignore this question as it's not a very good question, and I did explain that our downline pay nothing. It's not very good because the answer is different for everyone. Some people lose very few books, there are various methods to achieve this. Other people don't actually do much retail, they mainly build a team and so don't use many books. Some people are blanket dropping and lose quite a few. Other people have a customer base and only give books to regular customers who always give them back. There are lot's of different situations and so you might as well ask how long is a piece of string.

Now coming to the point, I did answer the question, imediately after you used big red letters. My answer was as follows.

Originally Posted by EthanM
I will however answer your question about costs. £75 is the minimum investment and usually it's £125, our downline don't pay for any more books as we give them free, up until there income reaches a decent level. So if I have to give an answer it is £125 which is returnable within 14 day's if you decide you don't like it.

So when you claim, that at NO TIME DID I GIVE YOU THE COST OF CATALOGUES, are you using the same reasoning as the rest of your argument. ie completely ignore the self evident facts and keep stating the opposite with great confidence and almost as if you did know what you were talking about.

You then say:

And despite the fact that you replied congratulating him on getting £120 worth of orders on his first drop of 100 books it was actually from 2 drops. The first drop got him £80 of orders and the second drop got him £40 worth of orders. But that was about two weeks ago and he hasn't been back to tell us what he made from his next drops.

This fits in with what I, and many others who have tried it say. Some people order, maybe even twice, but they soon stop ordering and the number of orders you get goes down until you have none and give up.

Really? Actually it does no such thing. You see no one drops to the same houses for at least a month. So 2 weeks later he would be dropping to New houses. Proving absolutely nothing about re-orders.

Again with logic like yours it's no wonder you arrive at your strange conclusions.

"Yes but I chose the you providing a list of over 100 customers who have bought regularly for years."

Let me get this straight, you are saying that if I produce over 100 customers that are not friends or family that have bought from Kleeneze over a number of years ( though it really should be more than a handful of times ) then you will pay be £10,000 and if I can't produce this number I pay you £10,000.

This is what you said, I just want you to confirm it?

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

I've been thinking about how we could fairly set up the bet. We take an area of say 800 houses and drop books and keep records of all orders, we do this 5 times. We now have houses that have ordered and houses that have not over 5 drops. The 6th drop is the bet. I bet that the vast majority of orders from the 6th drop will be from houses that have ordered in the previous 5 drops.

In fact we don't need to start a new area we can do it on an established area. This would speed it up greatly. I can show you a list of the customers that buy regularily from Kleeneze. ( you can easily verify this ) We then drop books in the whole area and see if the average order from regular customers is higher than the average order from non customers. It's a no brainer but clearly you are arguing the the opposite should happen.

Please don't reply to this, I'm just quoting it to point out something later, specifically certain words which I have highlighted in bold.

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

you replied
How can I have a rational conversation with a person that either chooses to ignore or else is incapable of understanding basic English.

I can manage to have a conversation where I have to ask a question 4 times before it gets answered.

EthanM wrote: »

Not only have I not said I want you to deliver books,

Sorry, it must be me not understanding basic english. I read all those we's, you know, the ones I have highlighted in bold in my previous post, and assumed they meant I was included in this.

Sorry, my fault I don't usually meet people who use the royal we.

EthanM wrote: »

I've specifically said that you wouldn't need to deliver books. You are not a Kleeneze agent it could not possibly be you.

Sorry, I have tried hard but I can't see where you specifically say I wouldn't need to deliver books.

EthanM wrote: »

Really? Is that so. How much commision do you think I'd make by getting someone to join and doing a few weeks and then leaving? I'll tell you, 0, nothing, nada.

That's not true, you would get your commission on whatever sales they made.

EthanM wrote: »

It just shows your complete ignorance of how it all works. Yet you speak as if your an authority. It's such a shame that some people will believe people like you.

I can point to many people who think it a shame that they listened to people like you.

To make it clear to others I will quote my bit here

No you didn't, I asked several times how much the catalogues cost and you ingored the question until I put it in big red letters. Then you replied that your downline give agents the books free until they are earning a decent amount. At no time did you supply me with the price you pay for the catalogues.

EthanM wrote: »

Now I tried to ignore this question as it's not a very good question, and I did explain that our downline pay nothing. It's not very good because the answer is different for everyone. Some people lose very few books, there are various methods to achieve this. Other people don't actually do much retail, they mainly build a team and so don't use many books. Some people are blanket dropping and lose quite a few. Other people have a customer base and only give books to regular customers who always give them back. There are lot's of different situations and so you might as well ask how long is a piece of string.

You really have been to the seminars haven't you. My original question was "how much does it cost to buy a catalogue from Kleeneze" Eventually you admitted that they cost £15 for 50 catalogues.

Your above answer is complete rubbish, nothing but smoke and mirrors. I wanted to know how much they cost, not how often you have to replace them, or how many some people lose or anything like that. As I said, I wanted to know the cost because someone said they made £30 commission and had to buy 100 more catalogues.

I could not work out how much profit they had made until I knew how much they had paid for the catalogues.

EthanM wrote: »

Now coming to the point, I did answer the question, imediately after you used big red letters. My answer was as follows.

For the benefit of others I will requote it below. But first I will mention that asking it in big red letters was the third of fourth time of asking, previous to that you had not give an answer.

Originally Posted by EthanM
I will however answer your question about costs. £75 is the minimum investment and usually it's £125, our downline don't pay for any more books as we give them free, up until there income reaches a decent level. So if I have to give an answer it is £125 which is returnable within 14 day's if you decide you don't like it.

EthanM wrote: »

So when you claim, that at NO TIME DID I GIVE YOU THE COST OF CATALOGUES, are you using the same reasoning as the rest of your argument. ie completely ignore the self evident facts and keep stating the opposite with great confidence and almost as if you did know what you were talking about.

No I'm using the reasoning that you didn't give me the cost of the catalogues.

I have quoted your answer above, where in it do you give the cost of the catalogues?

EthanM wrote: »

Really? Actually it does no such thing. You see no one drops to the same houses for at least a month. So 2 weeks later he would be dropping to New houses. Proving absolutely nothing about re-orders.

But the persons own figures show a fall, so it supports my statement that you get less and less orders each time.

EthanM wrote: »

Let me get this straight, you are saying that if I produce over 100 customers that are not friends or family that have bought from Kleeneze over a number of years ( though it really should be more than a handful of times ) then you will pay be £10,000 and if I can't produce this number I pay you £10,000.

This is what you said, I just want you to confirm it?

Over 100 customers who have ordered from you regularly for years, and that I have verified.

You yourself have stated that the way it works is you stop delivering books to people who do not place an order, therefore reducing the number of books you deliver.

Therefore they must have made orders most months, you wouldn't keep giving them books if they didn't. people who make an order once or twice a year don't count. That is not regular enough to be an income.

You say you deliver books to people every month and they make regular orders, so thats what I want verified.