Any one got any experience of this one...

phildamb

Very tempted:-

http://www.secondwage.co.uk/

In need of more money and this looks likely..but has anyone used them before or something similar?

geordie_joe

phildamb wrote: »

Very tempted:-

http://www.secondwage.co.uk/

In need of more money and this looks likely..but has anyone used them before or something similar?

If it's not a scam I'll give you half my wages for the next twenty years.

If you give them your address they will send you further details, but they also want your phone number so they can ring and give you the hard sell.

This site is nothing more than one of those postcards you see in newsagents windows.

I'd be interested to find out if anyone is daft enough to fill in the form.

phildamb

geordie_joe wrote: »

If it's not a scam I'll give you half my wages for the next twenty years.

If you give them your address they will send you further details, but they also want your phone number so they can ring and give you the hard sell.

This site is nothing more than one of those postcards you see in newsagents windows.

I'd be interested to find out if anyone is daft enough to fill in the form.

Looks like your right..a whois shows the site belongs to

http://www.mlmmessaging.com/home/index.php

They seem to be a marketing company.

EthanM

They are a company used by many legitimate network marketing companies. I'm sure dodgy ones too.
I don't think there is enough information to judge it. On the face of it, it looks like Kleeneze to me, but it's impossible to be sure. It is the web page of an agent for an MLM company and even that is not certain but implied by the fact they are using MLM messaging which provides tools to MLM companies.

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

I find it interesting how so many people can experty tell if something is a scam with hardly any information. I'm not suggesting this is a scam or it is legitimate, I don't think there is enough information to judge it.

When they say "£500 - £2000 per month or more" but don't tell you anything about the work until you give them your details then the next step is asking you for money.

There is enough info on the site to mark it out as a scam, if you don't believe me then enter your details see what the person who phones you wants.

Bet your life he will promise you money and to get it all you have to do is part with the registration fee.

EthanM

geordie_joe wrote: »

When they say "£500 - £2000 per month or more" but don't tell you anything about the work until you give them your details then the next step is asking you for money.

There is enough info on the site to mark it out as a scam, if you don't believe me then enter your details see what the person who phones you wants.

Bet your life he will promise you money and to get it all you have to do is part with the registration fee.

I guess your definition of a scam and mine are completely different. I did respond to a similar add to this, I was asked to invest £125, I studied it and did it. I earnt my £125 back in the first week and now earn a few hundred each month as an add on to my regular income. I do this with Kleeneze and am very happy with it. Is this a scam? definitely not. Is it for everybody that needs extra money? again definitely not.

The notion that automatically if there is a fee upfront it is a scam, works very well for Jobs as you wouldn't expect to pay to start a job. Although even then sometimes you need to buy certain clothes. However if your going to be self employed or indeed something like a franchise, you expect to have to pay. In the case of a Franchise it can be tens of thousands of pounds.

I'm online right now via Tiscali, they have used network marketing to sell their services and charged a fee to join their network. Are they a scam company? No, they clearly are not, just as Avon, Kleeneze and myriads of other companies are not.

Kleeneze is actually a member of the http://www.dsa.org.uk/ and as such has to be lawful and abide by a strict code of conduct. I speak about Kleeneze as it is the company I'm involved with, however there are many companies that are completely legal and legitimate that would fail your "scam test" I fully understand why you feel the way you do, as there are many scams that mimic this system and charge fees for essentially nothing, thus making people scared of anything that appears similar.

Regards

Ethan

geordie_joe

It wasn't that they ask for a fee up front, it is that they ask for the fee before telling you anything about what it is.

These scams, and it is a scam, usually involve you paying a fee only to be told you can make money by having a similar site and charging other people a fee.

In my mind that is a scam, if you don't think it is, well that's up to you.

As for Tiscali, they make it very plain what it will cost you and what the work involves long before you have to part with any money. When you sign up for Tiscali you are selling a well known service. Completely different thing all together.

Many people think Kleeneze is a scam too, and I'm one of them. The only way you can make money from it is by persuading others it is good and getting commission off their sales. You have to continually recruit new people as they soon drop out when their sales dry up. As they always do because the kleeneze stuff is overprice by a LONG way. It has to be to pay all the people above the agent their share of the commission.

EthanM

I've not heard of asking for a fee before they will tell you what it is for. If that is true then it is a scam I agree.

Your descroption of Tiscali and why it is not a scam can be exactly applied to Kleeneze. They make it very clear what the costs are and when you sign up you are selling a well known product. Actually with Kleeneze you don't actually sell, just push a book through the door.

I actually worked for Tiscali for a while and I can assure you that the set up is the same.

you said
"The only way you can make money from it is by persuading others it is good and getting commission off their sales."

In the first place this is completely untrue of Kleeneze although as it happens it is true of Tiscali. With Kleeneze many people do not build a team and make all their money from their retail sales. ie the commision on the orders that people gave after putting a book through their door. I spoke with someone just recently that was making £2000 a month just doing this.

I used to be in sales and sold many things, for some time I worked for Hallmark greeting cards and sold them to shops. The only way I could make money was "by persuading others the cards were good and getting commision off their sales " Hmm does that sound familiar?

Please explain how the following is a scam.

I put 200 books out each week and have no customers yet but get the national average in sales which is £800 over the month. ( this goes up a lot as you build a customer base ) I get paid £84 commision plus a bonus cheque of £50 giving me a total of £134 in that first month. Not a great deal of money but I'm happy as I know the orders will get bigger and I continue into my second month.

My friend sees what I'm doing and realises that there is a lot more potential in it and so he joins as well. He does the exact same as I did and he gets paid the exact same as I did ie £134.

Is this a scam so far?

In my second month, which is the same month as my friends first month I don't increase my sales ( for the sake of this example ) so I again earn £134 but Kleeneze also pay me an extra bonus for the sales my friend did as they understand those sales would not have happened without me introducing my friend. This is not a sneaky bonus cheque no one knows about, it is one that is part of the system of commision that everyone understands before they join. The exact system Tiscali uses that you say is not a scam?

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

Is this a scam so far?

In my second month, which is the same month as my friends first month I don't increase my sales ( for the sake of this example ) so I again earn £134 but Kleeneze also pay me an extra bonus for the sales my friend did as they understand those sales would not have happened without me introducing my friend. This is not a sneaky bonus cheque no one knows about, it is one that is part of the system of commision that everyone understands before they join. The exact system Tiscali uses that you say is not a scam?

You missed the point, with Tiscali a customer buys one thing. With Kleeneze you need the customer to continue buying products week after week.

The customers don't do this because the Kleeneze stuff is way over priced. So you have to keep going further afield to find new customers who only make one or two orders before realising the stuff is not worth the money. Pretty soon you cannot go any further and are forced to give up, or recruit others to do the same. Sell a few items for a short while until their customers get wise. Then they give up and you have to find a new recruit.

This is why it is a scam, you can't continue to sell the goods in the catalogue because the customers won't continue to buy them.

But you have to go into forum and defend Kleeneze so anyone thinking of joining might think it is a good if only they put in enough work, and the people who say it's a scam are just lazy.

While I am here, can you post the costs of the things you have to buy from Kleeneze, new catalogues, order forms, bags etc.?

EthanM

geordie_joe wrote: »

You missed the point, with Tiscali a customer buys one thing. With Kleeneze you need the customer to continue buying products week after week.

The customers don't do this because the Kleeneze stuff is way over priced. So you have to keep going further afield to find new customers who only make one or two orders before realising the stuff is not worth the money. Pretty soon you cannot go any further and are forced to give up, or recruit others to do the same. Sell a few items for a short while until their customers get wise. Then they give up and you have to find a new recruit.

This is why it is a scam, you can't continue to sell the goods in the catalogue because the customers won't continue to buy them.

But you have to go into forum and defend Kleeneze so anyone thinking of joining might think it is a good if only they put in enough work, and the people who say it's a scam are just lazy.

While I am here, can you post the costs of the things you have to buy from Kleeneze, new catalogues, order forms, bags etc.?

Geordie the problem with this kind of discussion is that with the greatest respect you clearly don't have the first clue about the business. Your claim that you need to go further and further afield to find customers is wildly inaccurate and in fact the exact opposite is the case.
When you start you need to deliver more catalogues, later you deliver far less. The facts are that people who order continue to order again and again. I have customers that order at least £50 every time I deliver a catalogue, sometimes in excess of £100. Once you have found the amount of customers you want, you just keep delivering every month to those same customers. Those my friend are the facts, your whole argument is based on a false premise.

As a further point I trust you agree that Kleeneze and Betterware have similar books? ( though I believe Kleeneze's to be better based on what my customers say ) in any case Betterware work by areas, their agents are forced to stay in the same area. How does it work for them? Since they can't keep going further afield.

I'm starting to wonder if you just like to argue. Just realised your the guy that can tell a scam just by the web template they use.

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

Geordie the problem with this kind of discussion is that with the greatest respect you clearly don't have the first clue about the business. Your claim that you need to go further and further afield to find customers is wildly inaccurate and in fact the exact opposite is the case.
When you start you need to deliver more catalogues, later you deliver far less. The facts are that people who order continue to order again and again. I have customers that order at least £50 every time I deliver a catalogue, sometimes in excess of £100. Once you have found the amount of customers you want, you just keep delivering every month to those same customers. Those my friend are the facts, your whole argument is based on a false premise.

No my arguement is based on being a Kleeneze Agent. And on talking to other ex-agents.

The simple fact is kleeneze stuff is way over priced and people DO NOT continue to buy from it.

EthanM wrote: »

As a further point I trust you agree that Kleeneze and Betterware have similar books? ( though I believe Kleeneze's to be better based on what my customers say ) in any case Betterware work by areas, their agents are forced to stay in the same area. How does it work for them? Since they can't keep going further afield.

The same thing happens, you quickly run out of customers.

EthanM wrote: »

I'm starting to wonder if you just like to argue. Just realised your the guy that can tell a scam just by the web template they use.

I don't like to argue, but I don't mind pointing out scams, or when people are not telling the whole truth.

EthanM wrote: »

Just realised your the guy that can tell a scam just by the web template they use.

I never said that, I said that one template was so widely used by scammers that no legit site would use it. Every time you buy some ebook that promises to tell you how to make millions of pounds you also get the rights to resell that ebook, and as a bonus you get a ready made web site template to use. it was that template I was referring to. No legit site would use a template scammers are offering as a bonus for buying their scam to help you sell the scam.

While I am here, can you post the costs of the things you have to buy from Kleeneze, new catalogues, order forms, bags etc.?