ABH Caution and the NHS

Quixotic

Hey people,

I was wondering if any one had any advice for me?

After reading a similar thread http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=738955 I thought I'd post my own.

So a little background:

My girlfriend received a caution for ABH in October 2006. She had been out to celebrate her birthday with friends, had hardly drank and was in a club when the incident occurred.

Whilst consoling a friend in a toilet cubicle, a bouncer entered accused the pair of doing drugs and physically threw my girlfriend out of the club - gracefully throwing her down the stairs in the process.

Trying to get her coat before she left, the same bouncer grabbed her round the upper body and neck, so she bit him.

The police were called, the bouncer came out with a bandage on and she was arrested. Now she had no previous record and had recently started working towards her degree in mental health nursing. She was worried it would effect the course and her career but the police told her it wouldn't, well it has...

A few weeks ago after almost 2 years of the degree complete, she has been asked to leave university. With a 2:1/1st average and glowing reports from her placements, she is now left in the cold.

The university fought her case and appealed that the NHS Primary Care Trust (PCT) were harsh being that she was a great student and the people in industry she had worked for had always been so positive about her ability as a nurse.

Now, there are people on the same course who have similar cautions or convictions and still remain on the course, as the PCT aren't aware of such things as the university apply for the CRBs when students apply for the course, but don't tell the PCTs were the students do 50% of the course.

It only came to light when she applied for a part time job in the PCT to supplement her measly £140 a month NHS bursary. The NHS found out, knew she was a student and told the university that they would no longer accept her on placement.

No placements, no course, no degree or job in the NHS.

The funny thing is she is working in the private sector at the moment doing the same job she was doing whilst on placement in the NHS for her degree. She openly told them the story and fully understood the situation, gave her a job and can't praise her enough.

Having said all that she wants to finish of her degree but cannot with the caution, so I was wondering if anyone had any advice for her on how to expunge a caution?

Either that or what we should do. Should be go to the NHS, the University, the Police or all three?

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 and the NHS Safer Recruitment Guidelines - seem like ports of call, but it's a complicated situation and ANY advice will be welcomed.

Thank You.


:money:

surreysaver

Well, I suppose the moral is refuse to accept a caution and go to court. It would never have got there by the sounds of it. But could you not appeal against a Police caution, or even take legal action against them for putting you under pressure and duress to accept the caution by lying about the effect on your record? They thought it would be an easy 'case solved' for their ticking boxes exercise, but has created a victim in doing do.

ohreally

She may have little recourse here. The employer has a duty of care both towards both patients and their other staff members and they will likely take the view that your girl friend has a suspect personality which she may have difficulty controlling - this is especially relevant in a mental health nursing environment. It's unlikely that a professional organisation or tade union would be able to help either.

If you wish further opinion I'm happy to go to pm as I've had professional involvement in similar circumstances.

kaya

not sure how long ago this happened but i would be taking the bouncer to court for assault and claiming the bite was self defence(which it sounds like it was), was it the cps or the bouncer who brought foreward the charges?

LittleVoice

kaya wrote: »

not sure how long ago this happened but i would be taking the bouncer to court for assault and claiming the bite was self defence(which it sounds like it was), was it the cps or the bouncer who brought foreward the charges?

OP says it happened in October 2006. This is less than 2 years ago and therefore highly relevant for now.

In the short term, speak with the university. How much practical experience would now required to complete the degree - would her present work outside the NHS be acceptable?

Oldernotwiser

Would she be able to transfer onto another degree, perhaps starting with year 2? Alternatively she could top it up with the OU.

Personally, I find the most shocking thing in your post to be the fact that there are other people with cautions and convictions for violence on her course, presumably soon to be working for the NHS; it doesn't say much for their vetting system!

Savvy_Sue

But their cautions and convictions may have been less recent, or they may start to have problems when they apply for jobs. A conviction should not mean an automatic ban to working in certain fields, each case should be considered individually.

NACRO may be able to help.

dmg24

Without knowing who she is working for at the moment, my concern is that they are not fulfilling their obligations towards ensuring the safety of their patients/ service users.

If the current organisation is governed by CSCI, I would be doubtful that her employment will last beyond their next inspection. CSCI check the CRB's of those recently employed, and have recommended the dismissal of employees for a lot less.

d123

its not really possible to appeal a caution as when the caution is given the person concerned has to agree they understand the process and more importantly admit guilt for the offence.

It's like voluntarily pleading guilty in court.

junkmayle

This link outlines a case where a caution was quashed. http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2006/1904.html

My case was similar but my solicitor said action had to be started within 3 months of receiving caution.

As an aside, if you are never allowed to forget your past, even if its not relevant to the job you're applying for, then it could lead to more crime. I think that when a conviction becomes spent, then all records should be erased if there has been no further re-offence.

Quixotic

Thanks guys for all the advice and comments, plenty to be thinking about - we both really appreciate the help. Thank you.

ohreally any help or opinion via PM would be brilliant, so please message away.

Just to update or clarify a few points:

The private hospitals she is working for at the moment are fully aware of her caution as she has never hidden it from employers.

They all realised that she's not a violent person and with her CV and application form, as well as the interview process were all happy to take her on after she explained the situation and caution.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders ACT 1974 says:

7.2 This is particularly important given that it is
young people who are disproportionately likely to
receive cautions and, by definition, reprimands
and final warnings. The omission of these
disposals from the provisions of the ROA could
have an effect on the prospects for these
youngsters of obtaining work and gaining a
meaningful and fulfilling place in society, which
could in turn affect their likelihood of reoffending.

7.3 It is clear from the figures available for the
administration of cautions that they are frequently
used. As indicated above, it is probable that there
are a substantial number of individuals who are
cautioned once but never subsequently cautioned
or convicted. It is in their interests and that of the
wider community that they should be fully
rehabilitated after an appropriate period. It seems
likely that these same factors will also apply over
time to reprimands and final warnings.

From that I think that the NHS have made a decision which doesn't fall in line with such act. I know they have to protect service users and staff, but a little common sense, background research, face-to-face interview, character witnesses etc should all at least play some part in the decision.

The private hospitals who have employed her have taken such a stance, so why haven't the NHS?

I know for a fact that they could, as when she initially applied for some part time work at the NHS she disclosed it and the HR people said fine, but what happened was through the process of hiring her they lost all her details, interview notes etc and then a new HR manger came in.

This new manager had no knowledge of anything that had gone on surrounding the previous interviews, interview notes etc. All they had was her CRB with a caution on and a reference number, they subsequently and hastily acted on that, took away her job and made it clear that she wouldn't be welcomed in the Primary Care Trust for placements.

If only they had seen her, saw the interview notes or even spoke to the former HR manager maybe none of this would have happened.

The University said they were outraged by it as she is literally the top student in her year, but there was nothing they could do after an appeal came to nothing.

I've heard the NHS Safer Recruitment Guidelines may help but I can't find a copy anywhere.

If we wait till 5 years have passed, apply to have the caution expunged and she carries on with her course (The University said she can do that) will it come up again because of the type of job she is going into?

Thank you again for taking the time to read through this and replying, it means a lot.

:money: