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  • FIRST POST
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 9th Oct 17, 9:23 PM
    • 47Posts
    • 45Thanks
    Justwe03
    Huge TC overpayment that's wrong
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 17, 9:23 PM
    Huge TC overpayment that's wrong 9th Oct 17 at 9:23 PM
    Hi there,

    Hoping someone can give me some advice as I've gotten myself in such a state I can't think straight.

    I had a childcare audit earlier this year, all fine, sent them all the details, receipts, and statements etc... I'd averaged my childcare out over the year @ £77pw. They edited it slightly to say £55 for a period of 8 weeks the £120pw for the rest of the year. Which I think means I actually underestimated my childcare costs slightly?

    But they have also sent me a series notification that I owe £16710.49 in overpaid WTC, CTC and CC, £12k of this for 16/17 and just under £5k for this year so they have stopped all of the payments until April to claw some back.

    It says that I have only worked 1 hour per week for the last 2 tax years and that I have sent no evidence of my employment.

    I am freaking out, to say the least. The main helpline can't speak to me and the direct dial number I was given hasn't worked for about 5 weeks.

    I am a single disabled parent and I just don't know what to do.

    I lost my son @ 20ish weeks in March 2017, and have been signed off since. I am returning to work tomorrow, after 28 weeks/6 months. I was signed off by the doctor rather than having maternity he was too young and I had no idea I was pregnant when I lost him.

    When I was in hospital my previous manager and assistant manager were sacked and a new person took over, when I originally went to discuss going back after a few weeks the new manager refused to have me back or to sack me (Maternity rights etc) So I went through ACAS to try and resolve the issue.

    Again the manager refuses to have me back but won't terminate my employment, we never get wage slips or a contract. Never had a p60 or p45 despite asking when this was going on. The paperwork ACAS managed to get had another employees details on rather than mine! so I called Tax Credits to inform them. As I was working 16 - 18 hours on average my sick notes cover me as working according to the caseworker but she's escalated my claim to someone more senior to sort out.

    Anyway, apparently everything is all fine and tax credits keep coming in as if I was still earning, and I can't claim anything else as the tax credits are based on what I was earning so I'm living off those and my small pot of savings.

    As it is I am now going back to the same company but a different restaurant tomorrow, temporarily until I start my new job in November.

    I sent all my bank statements to show my wages being paid into my account and sent them all the paperwork from ACAS to do with the previous restaurant.

    I've always worked the right amount of hours, so this all arriving this morning and I just don't know what to do, the phone number still isn't working, the main phone line can't help me. I have absolutely nothing left and certainly can't magic £17,000 out of anywhere.
Page 1
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 9th Oct 17, 9:31 PM
    • 4,703 Posts
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    Darksparkle
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 9:31 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 9:31 PM
    I’m sorry for your loss.

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/tax-credits-technical-manual/tctm02421

    An employed person is treated as being in qualifying remunerative work for up to 28 weeks, provided that person normally worked at least 16, 24 or 30 hours a week (whichever applied) immediately before beginning to receive any one of these benefits:

    - Statutory Sick Pay
    - Short-term Incapacity Benefit at the lower rate
    - Income Support on the grounds of incapacity for work
    - Employment and Support Allowance
    - National Insurance credits on the grounds of incapacity for work or limited capability for work

    Did you receive any of those whilst off sick?
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 22nd Oct 17, 10:41 AM
    • 47 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Justwe03
    • #3
    • 22nd Oct 17, 10:41 AM
    • #3
    • 22nd Oct 17, 10:41 AM
    Hi, sorry it's been so long since I've replied things have gone from bad to worse.

    My employer has no record of me on their systems, apart from photo's of myself at work and reviews that mention me by name etc... I have no proof I was there at all, There are at least 100 people employed in the same jobs as me at different venues. And there is now a threatening undercurrent in the communications I've had with the CEO.

    I applied and was receiving £15 a week in ESA, I went back to another place from ran by the same Employer for 3 shifts a week or so ago and asked the manager to chase up where my previous p60 was to send to HRMC.

    I then got a call from the manager saying I know can't work until I've spoken to the CEO, I emailed as requested. The response was, I've cost him money by speaking to ACAS and there is a nationwide no return policy if you cost him money.

    I have no idea what to do, I've sent as much evidence as I can to HMRC. I worked 16 - 18 hours every week. I've never done anything fraudulently in my life.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 22nd Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • 3,025 Posts
    • 1,837 Thanks
    epitome
    • #4
    • 22nd Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    He sent you that reply in email?

    I suggest you speak to the C.A.B
    Get together all your paperwork that you had, payslips, bankstatements, P60, employer letters etc, and take it with you to C.A.B. and ask if they can refer you to a solicitor or recommend a solicitor for you to go and see.

    Did you pay Union subscriptions? If so speak to your Union.

    With regards to the Tax Credit Overpayment
    I would expect HMRC to have such a thing as Written Statement of Reasons...which you should ask for.

    I would phone the main helpline and ask to speak to a manager and ask how you are supposed to phone the direct line when it is always engaged - for 5 weeks...and ask what are this manager is going to do to help you to speak to the right department -Make sure you take the manager's name and office name. If they do not help then ask them to take a complaint from you over the phone naming them in your complaint that they have not offered any way to resolve this problem.

    I think you should also say on this thread
    What date you last worked on the original work..& if they gave you sick pay.
    What date you Claimed ESA from and what has happened to that claim for ESA now?
    What date you phoned Tax Credits initially to inform them you had stopped working and were on sick.


    One thing I can confirm is that your Working Tax Credit payments will have been deducted out of your ESA. But although WTC is now saying there is an overpayment...ESA will not give you any arrears for the same period.
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 22nd Oct 17, 4:00 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Justwe03
    • #5
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:00 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:00 PM
    Hi thanks so much for replying, I'll fill in what I can:

    Last worked 6th March 2017
    Contacted work 8th March said I was in hospital and why.

    Signed off for 4 weeks, no sick pay. Contacted work again on numerous occasions and was ignored. Had some complications from surgery and signed off for another 8 weeks.

    Went into work, took copies of sicknotes in and letter for manager asking them to contact me. Found out my manager has been fired for scalping our hours to pay his wife a high salary. Which is why our wages were never right always under and all over the place.

    I the same shifts every week, 3 evening 5pm till anywhere between 10:30pm and 12:30am depending on if it's the weekend shift.

    Went physically into work 3 times in April and sent a letter recorded in early May, on advice from ACAS. No response so they began early resolution. Got a letter back from work in june basically saying nothing but with a SSP1 that had someone else's details on not mine.

    Claimed ESA based on contributions according to the award in June after everything finished with ACAS and I got a ET cert, I spoke to a solicitor then but I couldn't afford to pursue it.

    Informed tax credits all this back in mid march as they were doing a childcare audit anyway told to leave it with the case worker but as I was working 16hrs+ average they would class me as working for upto 28 weeks.

    Stopped the claim for ESA on the 10th October when I returned to work, my last sick note ran out on agreement with my dr on 10th October.

    Spoke to my new manager and they said they'd chase it all up for me and find out what's happened. Worked the rest of the week no problems, now being refused my hours and told of this apparent policy.

    Letters from HMRC are dated the 2nd and 3rd October but arrived the 8th. I'd already sorted out going back to work at a new restaurant on the 10th with a different manager at this point.

    Have already spoken to CAB but they are being very slow on an appointment. New Manager did find out I am not on the system at all, apparently nobody was when I started as it 'wasn't on the books' initially. That's not provable by me I guess but just for context.

    We've never had any wage slips or p60's. There's no record on my personal tax account online etc...

    I've written all this to HMRC with proof of what they did pay me although it's all wrong. And proof of my previous employment with a letter from them directly confirming my hours, wage and dates I worked for them. As this proves half of 16/17 I was working over 16hours anyway.

    I hope that adds a bit clarity to what's gone on.
    • epm-84
    • By epm-84 22nd Oct 17, 4:36 PM
    • 1,324 Posts
    • 4,304 Thanks
    epm-84
    • #6
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:36 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:36 PM
    Have you tried signing in to your online tax account: https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

    That might show information that should be on P60s.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 22nd Oct 17, 4:43 PM
    • 3,025 Posts
    • 1,837 Thanks
    epitome
    • #7
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:43 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:43 PM
    Just to re-iterate, There is very little I can help you with, my area of expertise is ESA, If no other replies from this forum, speak to C.A.B and a solicitor. My advice is also to contact your work colleagues who can verify that you all worked together and that you were all working more than 1 hour a week. If you don't know them maybe they are still working there? Did you get paid for the week worked in October?


    I think for the purposes of this thread you need to say what date you claimed ESA from.


    You said claimed ESA Contributory, but said only paid £15 per week. Working Tax Credits would not have been deducted from ESA C.
    ESA C would have paid you £73.10 or £57.90 a week
    Therefore you must have claimed ESA IR




    *To anyone reading this thread...it illustrates the importance of having a written contract of employment and payslips. This employer appears to be commiting several offences.
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 22nd Oct 17, 4:49 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Justwe03
    • #8
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:49 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Oct 17, 4:49 PM
    Have you tried signing in to your online tax account: https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

    That might show information that should be on P60s.
    Originally posted by epm-84
    Yes, this employer isn't on there at all. I also rang HMRC and asked and they have no records from this employer either.

    People I work with I've been getting wages slips but they still haven't had P60's from last tax year.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 22nd Oct 17, 5:34 PM
    • 3,025 Posts
    • 1,837 Thanks
    epitome
    • #9
    • 22nd Oct 17, 5:34 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Oct 17, 5:34 PM
    Your solicitor will be able to advise, but if you can get an affidavit from your work colleagues, and appeal the HMRC decision...your evidence of criminal activity by your employer should go a long way to winning this case for you.
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 22nd Oct 17, 6:02 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Justwe03
    Thank you for all the responses my Dad is trying to get me a solicitor through the fedoration at his work as I have no income at all now.

    I'll go to the drop in at CAB tomorrow and see if I can get them to sort out a proper appointment. I'll also check my ESA award as I'm sure it was CB, that's what it says on my original paperwork when they send you the pack when you claim over the phone. Don't want to find myself in bother with anything else
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 2nd Dec 17, 9:57 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Justwe03
    Just an update,

    Tax credits turned down my reconsideration. Because they reasoned the money I could prove only amounted to an average of 14hrs a week, so they've still classed me as working 1hour per week.

    But also completely ignored the other job I had that year that was contracted 18.5 hours a week from 4th April - 30th August.

    However, they aren't pursuing me for fraud and have instead stopped all our tax credits for the next 3 years to recoup the supposedly owed money.

    I've been to see my MP today and his assistant was well aware of my employer from being on the licensing committee for our council and him turning up playing 'billy big boy' with legal reps from London.

    They are going to write a letter but can't promise anything.

    I started my new job this week so I'm hoping I can get some legal advice through the employee assist service once I am all set up on the systems.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 2nd Dec 17, 10:47 PM
    • 1,583 Posts
    • 1,685 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Can I clarify:
    When you say "Tax credits turned down my reconsideration.", does that mean you have a Mandatory Reconsideration Notice from HMRC.

    If so, then the next stage is to appeal to the Tribunal Service (TS) on a SSCS5 form. The letter should tell you this. There are time limits to continue your appeal to the TS, so get the appeal lodged asap.

    Here is the form:
    https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/sscs5-eng.pdf

    This is a helpful site on HMRC appeals:
    http://revenuebenefits.org.uk/tax-credits/guidance/how-to-deal-with-hmrc/appeals/starting-an-appeal/

    It's good that you have seen your MP - can he intervene with the HMRC on your behalf?
    If HMRC have completely ignored the other job you had in that year which, then that could be quite significant.
    Have you checked if your local CAB / advice agency can help you with the appeal?
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/help-if-on-a-low-income/working-and-child-tax-credits/tax-credits-appeals/appealing-a-tax-credits-decision-at-a-tribunal/

    I am assuming you have been through this process:
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/benefits-introduction/problems-with-benefits-and-tax-credits/challenging-a-benefit-decision/challenging-a-dwp-benefit-decision-on-or-after-28-october-2013/challenging-a-benefit-or-tax-credit-decision-asking-for-a-reconsideration/
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 02-12-2017 at 10:51 PM.
    • Justwe03
    • By Justwe03 3rd Dec 17, 7:27 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Justwe03
    Thank you Alice, it said they’d looked at my reconsideration but haven’t changed their decision and because it’s an overpayment I can’t appeal. I’m on my way back to London for work for the week, but I’ll see if I can get a snippet of the letter without any personal details on.

    My M.P. has taken some of my evidence and is going to write to them on my behalf.

    CAB weren’t able to get a specialist over to my area in time before the reconsideration was due so I’ve been going at it a bit blind, and I’m now away for work during the week and Home at the weekends.

    I’ll have a proper read through those links shortly thank you
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 3rd Dec 17, 9:15 PM
    • 1,583 Posts
    • 1,685 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I believe when you get your final award notice this constitutes a decision you may be able to challenge by way of an MR and appeal to the TS.

    Hopefully darksparkle will come back to your thread, she is more knowledgeable than I on Tax Credits.

    I wonder if you had another job that has been ignored by HMRC and would have taken you up to the 16 hour threshold - if it's worth raising a complaint with HMRC?
    That might mean your case gets looked at with greater scrutiny.
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 3rd Dec 17, 9:21 PM
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    • 2,975 Thanks
    Darksparkle
    It’s important to get the right route with these things.

    Very simply, appeals are for when your award is incorrect. Disputes are for when your award is correct, you’ve been overpaid but you don’t believe you have made an error.

    In your case it will be an appeal. You won’t be appealing an overpayment, you’ll be appealing their decision to ignore one job and the hours of the other.
    • KiKi
    • By KiKi 4th Dec 17, 12:37 PM
    • 4,929 Posts
    • 8,005 Thanks
    KiKi
    I can't help on benefits, but with regards to your employment situation, Sangie on the employment board will be able to give you some excellent advice. She's frank speaking, so it may not be what you want to hear(!), but she'll tell you what you need to know to progress anything with regards to your current employer.

    Really sorry for your loss.
    KiKi
    ' <-- See that? It's called an apostrophe. It does not mean "hey, look out, here comes an S".
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 4th Dec 17, 12:59 PM
    • 3,466 Posts
    • 2,356 Thanks
    Icequeen99
    Itís important to get the right route with these things.

    Very simply, appeals are for when your award is incorrect. Disputes are for when your award is correct, youíve been overpaid but you donít believe you have made an error.

    In your case it will be an appeal. You wonít be appealing an overpayment, youíll be appealing their decision to ignore one job and the hours of the other.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle
    As DS says there are two routes - disputes and appeals

    It sounds like they have treated your initial challenge as a dispute - that sounds like a typical dispute response.

    You need to send in a mandatory reconsideration form (WTC/AP) and explain that they have incorrectly treated your first attempt at reconsideration as an appeal. This is an entitlement issue and it needs to be treated as such - you need a mandatory reconsideration notice before you can go to tribunal stage.

    IQ
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