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    • Ttsqre
    • By Ttsqre 3rd Jul 17, 10:29 AM
    • 13Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Getting taken to court by Civil Enforcement
    • #1
    • 3rd Jul 17, 10:29 AM
    Getting taken to court by Civil Enforcement 3rd Jul 17 at 10:29 AM
    Hi All
    I am being taken to court by CE ltd for what (they claim) was a 16 minute stay.
    What happened:
    I went to a car park which was 20p per hour to take the kids for a bike ride. Instead of using a parking space, I pulled up by the park to unload the bikes and the children (with a view to parking once disembarkation was complete). One of the bikes had a fault and it took me a few minutes to work out if was not resolvable one. So I reloaded the kids and the bikes and drove off. An additional factor is that just after I exited the car park I realised I had left something on the grass so popped back for it.
    Chain of Events:
    CE sent me loads of threatening letters. What I objected to was the tone of intimidation, saying things about it affecting my credit rating etc which I know to be stretching the truth, and is clearly deliberately misleading.
    I responded once explaining the above and that I was not going to pay. I also asked for evidence that they had not 'double dipped' me.
    They rejected this and passed me onto the their debt collectors and solicitors. And here we are, they are claiming £323 including court fees for a 16 minute (max) stay in a car park that is 20p an hour.
    In their particulars of claim they cite Vine vs Waltham for accepting the terms on the signs, and of course Beavis for implementing a disincentive.
    i have acknowledged the claim and have just over 2 weeks to formulate my defense. Quite simply I would rather go to court and lose than roll over for these people. Their intimidation tactics are a disgrace, let alone the amount of money that are trying to extract from me!
    My plan:
    I will post a draft of my defense here, but please let me know what other information you need to help me! At the moment I'm thinking I will build my defense around 3 points:
    1. The beavis case not relevent here as that was a free carpark so the company had to get revenue from somewhere. My case involves a paid car park.+ in my case the car park is in very low demand and was empty at the time. PLUS If asking for £300+ for a 16 minute stay in a 20p-per-hour carpark is not extravagant and unconscionable then what is!
    2. In Jopson vs Home the judge draws a distinction between stopped to unload etc and parking. 100% relevant in my case, esp the bit about "unloading awkward or heavy items"
    3. in the BPA Code of conduct, the charge must be "proportionate and commercially justifiable". As explained above, no reasonable person would consider the £100 or £60 or the whole £323 as either proportionate or commercially justifiable.

    I will also complain that they still haven't provided any evidence that they haven't double dipped me. Surely they have to provide photos of 2 entrances and 2 exits of my vehicle? (currently they have provided just one entrance and one exit photo)

    many thanks for any time you spend reading / replying; truly appreciated!
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    • Ttsqre
    • By Ttsqre 14th Jul 17, 3:31 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yes it was 12th June, but the I emailed the court asking when I needed to file my defense by after I did my AOS and they said I have till the 21st! Anyway I have filed it now and I can see in the portal that it has been received.(they also replied by email answering my question if I needed to do anything else, confirming that I didn't!) It's a very good service actually.
    I will let you know how I i get on.
    Thank you again so much for your help, your advice really does help to level the playing field so that these companies can't bully people into paying up!
    • Ttsqre
    • By Ttsqre 1st Sep 17, 9:53 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Hi All - an update:
    CE have completed their Directions Questionnaire, and I have been sent one to complete.
    I have not been sent a copy of their DQ so I don't know how they have completed it, what court they want to proceed in etc - but by the sounds of it I get to choose that anyway.
    I have some questions that would be great to get an answer to:
    1. When will I get to see the evidence they intend to bring to bear? Such as evidence they didn't double dip me.
    2. Do I need to print off the case precedents I used in my defense? Where should I source them - is there an official source I should use? And how do I know they are 'valid' precedents?
    3. Should I refuse mediation? I would be happy to settle for £10 or less.. but on principle nothing more.. so I'm guessing this would be a waste of everyone's time?
    4.Should I prepare my own costs in the event I win? (i know there is advice on what can be claimed for so don't need details of that)
    5. What are my chances do you think based on my defense? And if I lose, do I have to pay the full 323 which includes all the court fees and the spurious addition fees they added on?Are my losses limited to the 323 that have specified?
    I can't believe any judge could think charging someone £100 for 16 minutes in a carpark that is 20p an hour when the person didn't even use up a space is reasonable.. but I know it comes down to legalities.
    thanks all
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Sep 17, 10:09 AM
    • 15,432 Posts
    • 24,135 Thanks
    Most of the above Qs are covered by the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2, where small claims court expert 'bargepole' has provided by a very detailed run-down of the procedures and steps.

    If after having gone through that advice there's still anything 'missing' please come back.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Ttsqre
    • By Ttsqre 1st Sep 17, 10:32 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Thanks, yes have read that, so my remaining questions are
    1. shouldn't I have received a copy of their DQ?
    2. by the looks things then I won't get to see their 'evidence' before I finalise my defense? This seems a little unfair?
    3. Would still like some opinion on what my chances are!
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 1st Sep 17, 12:27 PM
    • 244 Posts
    • 427 Thanks
    1. Yes but you probably won't

    2. It is unlikely they will send you anything

    3. They will either discontinue or not turn up

    This is my thread how I saw them off back in 2015. Use anything you think is helpful, but bear in mind things may have changed since then (such as Beavis etc) so make sure you check things are still relevant.

    Good luck
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 17, 7:18 PM
    • 51,473 Posts
    • 65,061 Thanks
    In the other cases at the moment, CEL are discontinuing and then people can claim costs.

    I have suggested that people put a covering letter with their DQ to CEL, but you will have seen this if you have been reading other CEL threads (which you really would benefit from to see what is likely to happen; NEVER stay on your own thread only):
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 2nd Sep 17, 1:56 AM
    • 823 Posts
    • 946 Thanks
    Your defenCe has already been submitted. Your final steps will be a witness statement , evidence you wish to adduce and potentially a skeleton argument.
    • Ttsqre
    • By Ttsqre 20th Sep 17, 4:38 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Update:I completed the DQ and unfortunately so did CE Ltd. the case has now been assigned to my local court.
    One thing I'm still a little confused about is that CE never produced the contract with the land owner and never produced evidence that they didn't 'double-dip' me. I will now have to prepare my defense without really knowing all the details of the case against me. If, for example, they have 'double-dipped' me(or can't produce evidence that they didn't) my defense would concentrate more on the "reasonable grace period" argument, whereas if they haven't I will concentrate on other arguments. This seems a little unfair. Is this just the way it works?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 17, 1:12 AM
    • 51,473 Posts
    • 65,061 Thanks
    Yes, it's the way it works - and you are preparing a Witness Statement & evidence, not a defence now. That bit is already in.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 21st Sep 17, 8:31 AM
    • 1,165 Posts
    • 2,319 Thanks
    I will now have to prepare my defense without really knowing all the details of the case against me.....
    ....This seems a little unfair.
    It's also highly unreasonable and unacceptable in terms of how they should conduct the case, and you will make a point of this in your WS/ SA - if the case isn't stayed or discontinued by then.
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