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  • FIRST POST
    • UKBasedAndy
    • By UKBasedAndy 16th Jun 17, 7:12 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 1Thanks
    UKBasedAndy
    Am I wrong to refuse to pay?
    • #1
    • 16th Jun 17, 7:12 PM
    Am I wrong to refuse to pay? 16th Jun 17 at 7:12 PM
    Hi All,
    I parked in a free car park but in a hatched area, I realise I was wrong and I am starting to doubt my refusal to pay.
    UKPCS sent me the NTK and as they were an IPC/BPA member I drafted a response based on the draft letter in the sticky (IPC version), and they have responded with a REJECTED letter but not actually answered any of the questions, or given any response to my request. I also amended question 4 to ask for details of all data items pertaining to myself (I thought this would count as a DPA request - am I wrong?)
    The rejection letter says "UKCPS ltd will not enter into any further correspondence unless through the IAS system..."
    Am I right to contest this? I know I was parked incorrectly, but my objection is that £100 seems to be a punitive amount, plus I have never read their signs so I feel that they are claiming a contractual obligation that I never agreed to. (Both of which are not viable defences from what I read in the stickies and posts).
    I am at a loss to create a positive defence and this is worrying me a massive amount, it has already been preying on my mind for 2 months... (I am a worrier by nature).
    I have read the stickies and posts but it feels like information overload, I really need some advice. THANK YOU if you have read this far, but please can anyone go a step further and advise me?
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jun 17, 7:25 PM
    • 49,944 Posts
    • 63,345 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 7:25 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 7:25 PM
    I also amended question 4 to ask for details of all data items pertaining to myself (I thought this would count as a DPA request - am I wrong?)
    No, you are right.

    Am I right to contest this?
    Yes in small claims, if they try. NOT at IAS, no point handing the scumbags a far from independent *win*.

    Sit tight, unless the landowner will cancel. UKCPS ones are best complained about.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • UKBasedAndy
    • By UKBasedAndy 17th Jun 17, 1:57 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    UKBasedAndy
    • #3
    • 17th Jun 17, 1:57 AM
    • #3
    • 17th Jun 17, 1:57 AM
    Thank you, but I am still unclear on what grounds to defend this if I cannot say that I think the amount is excessive..
    I complained to cineworld in an email but they say they are not the landowners.
    I do not think I was causing on obstruction, but they will say the signage (which I had never even read) says I should have parked in a marked bay.
    I would like to appeal to the IAS, even if only to show I Was trying to get a resolution, and as others have said the more rejections the IAS returnnthen the worse they look. But on what grounds can I build a defence?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 17th Jun 17, 3:05 PM
    • 40,303 Posts
    • 80,496 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 17th Jun 17, 3:05 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Jun 17, 3:05 PM
    The advice is not to appeal to the IAS. It isn't independent and it is believed the IPC guarantee that it will reject 80% of appeals out of hand.

    I suggest you now wait to see if you get real court papers in the next six years. If that happens, come back to this thread for further help.

    Take time some date stamped photos of the entrance and signs as soon as you can and keep them safe just in case that happens.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • UKBasedAndy
    • By UKBasedAndy 17th Jun 17, 4:08 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    UKBasedAndy
    • #5
    • 17th Jun 17, 4:08 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Jun 17, 4:08 PM
    Again, thank you for the time taken to respond; I know many will think I am a silly old fart, but this is weighing heavily on my mind and your assistance is really appreciated. I have just found the owners of the land (UKCPS didnt answer my question of who owned it) and so I have sent a strongly worded letter saying how disgusted I am, in the hope they will help.

    In my mind, my reasons for not paying and the basis of any defence would be as follows:
    1. I wouldn't knowingly enter into such a one-sided contract
    2. Inever read the signage, as I haven't at Tesco, Asda or any other retailer (surely they would all be the same wouldn't they, and would I reasonably be expected to know the difference?)
    3. By putting more shops and services than can be handled by the parking, shouldn't the owners bear at least some responsibility for this situation?
    4. Because I had pre-paid tickets for the cinema (retained) and travelled a 40+ round trip with my family, shouldn't I have a reasonable expectation of parking?
    5.Because the land owners and UKCPS have a situation where it is beneficial and financially rewarding to impose parking charges, are they purposefully not looking at ways to improve parking?
    6. The place where I parked had lines painted, but if they KNEW people were parking there isn't it encumbent on them to stop this with a physical barrier (even a single pole inserted in that area would stop cars parking there - this would be a simple and cheap deterrent) - as I see it they have left this hatched area untouched because it generates them an income.
    I especially think point 6 is solid.

    Would any or all of these form a sound (and legally legitimate and sound) basis for a defence?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Jun 17, 6:16 PM
    • 32,726 Posts
    • 16,745 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #6
    • 17th Jun 17, 6:16 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Jun 17, 6:16 PM
    Why are you stressed now?

    As advised in #4 worry about formulating a defence if and when you need one.

    But take those photos so they will be contemporaneous should you get court correspondence in the years ahead (your defence in #5 won't do)
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Jun 17, 7:05 PM
    • 15,486 Posts
    • 19,571 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 17th Jun 17, 7:05 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Jun 17, 7:05 PM
    in future you need to put some effort into avoiding 2) because all these places tend to have signage and parking rules and you will fall foul of a lot more of them if you DO NOT read the signage

    retail parks, supermarkets , hospitals , doctors surgeries , care centres , diy complexes , attractions , train stations , airports , ports , all sorts of place have private parking on private land and the signage differs enormously and you can be deemed to have formed a contract by parking there , if the signs make it legally binding under the various laws of the land

    POFA2012 can make you the keeper liable for any "transgressions" by your vehicle, if the PPC complies with POFA2012 , so its coming up to 5 years since that law arrived

    if you read post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread you will see a link to a thread by BARGEPOLE where he gives all the examples of what WILL NOT WIN in court

    take this pcn from UKCPS as a warning shot across your bows because ignorance of the law is no defence

    examples of legal defences are also shown in post #2 of that NEWBIES sticky thread

    read a few recent CEL and GLADSTONE court claims to get the idea, plus do some research on the BARRY BEAVIS case too, he lost in 3 courts to 10 out of 11 judges over a 2 year period

    6) might have some legs in civil court , the rest wont

    you are not wrong in refusing to pay, but if a judge finds against you then you MUST PAY , promptly , usually within 28 days (to avoid a CCJ)
    Last edited by Redx; 17-06-2017 at 7:09 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jun 17, 10:01 PM
    • 49,944 Posts
    • 63,345 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 17th Jun 17, 10:01 PM
    • #8
    • 17th Jun 17, 10:01 PM
    We help newbies win pretty much every defended case. Most cases are won on one of these issues:

    - unclear signs

    - no contract formed

    - no keeper liability

    - no landowner authority proven

    - complete mess-ups by the PPC or their solicitor dropping the ball on procedure/paperwork.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • UKBasedAndy
    • By UKBasedAndy 17th Jun 17, 11:14 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    UKBasedAndy
    • #9
    • 17th Jun 17, 11:14 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Jun 17, 11:14 PM
    I did not know until I staeted reading on here, and I assume that 90% of people do not know, that parking enters us into a contract.
    I also doubt that anyone actually stops and reads the signs... can you honestly say you read the signs in each and every car park you use?
    Ok, ignorance is not an excuse, but how we know each and every law and bylaw pertaining to our daily lives? Seems bizarre we can be sucked into a contract without our knowledge.

    I worry because in 52 years I have never been to court, nor threatened with legal action... I am naive where the law is concerned... thus I worry now that I have.
    I have read the stickies and many threads linking from this, I have read round this, but find it all very confusing.
    If all my defences are irrelevant, then I worry because I cannot honestly say the signage was bad if I never looked for signs, and the other points seem like technicalities which I may feel uncomfortable using.
    OK I shouldnt worry... but unfortunately its the way I am made.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jun 17, 11:31 PM
    • 49,944 Posts
    • 63,345 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    can you honestly say you read the signs in each and every car park you use?
    Yes, we all do, but we are an unusual group!!

    I worry because in 52 years I have never been to court, nor threatened with legal action..
    I am a similar age, and nor had I been threatened with legal action, until...never mind. Let's just say, scams are nothing to worry about. So what about a baseless threat?

    I reiterate, WE WIN.

    If all my defences are irrelevant
    Where did we say that? One of your two points in your first post, is VERY relevant. You said ''I feel that they are claiming a contractual obligation that I never agreed to'' and look at my list of what wins in court:

    - unclear signs

    - no contract formed

    - no keeper liability

    - no landowner authority proven

    - complete mess-ups by the PPC or their solicitor dropping the ball on procedure/paperwork.
    And this is UKCPS, famous for gobbledegook signs hidden on walls:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/ukcps-claim-dismissed-judge-rules.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/ukcps-claim-dismissed-judge-rules_14.html

    Seriously, stop worrying, they can't affect your credit rating unless you ignored a small claim, and we won't let you! Even if a person loses at a hearing they don't get a CCJ (unless you refuse to pay what the Judge says, typically £150, nothing major). And we WIN. Always worth defending against a scam.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 17-06-2017 at 11:44 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • UKBasedAndy
    • By UKBasedAndy 18th Jun 17, 12:13 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    UKBasedAndy
    Thank you all for your replies, it has eased my mind a bit, especially your last one coupon mad.
    How do I give a "thank you"? I havent seen any signs on here
    Truth to tell, it is not the money, I will happily pay anything a judge passes my way and accept it graciously .
    Nor am I worried about CCJs.. I dont think it would affect me in any way. I dont use credit.. and I have a mortgage.
    Basically I agree, I have nothing to worry about... but I am sure I still will
    Anyway, thanks guys, I appreciate your support against this shameful practice and money making racket.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th Jun 17, 8:02 AM
    • 6,997 Posts
    • 6,066 Thanks
    The Deep
    Thank you, but I am still unclear on what grounds to defend this if I cannot say that I think the amount is excessive..


    Here are a few possibles.


    Their contract with the landowner may not be viable. Their terms and conditions are unclear or perverse. They may not have complied with the legislation.


    They have a lot of hurdles to jump, they invariably fall on at least one of them.
    C
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 18th Jun 17, 8:20 AM
    • 32,726 Posts
    • 16,745 Thanks
    Quentin
    Nor am I worried about CCJs.. I dont think it would affect me in any way. I dont use credit.. and I have a mortgage.......
    Originally posted by UKBasedAndy
    Getting a. Ccj doesn't affect anyone's credit status.

    It's not paying one off that results in problems.

    Only I'd you don't pay it off in full during the 30 days from getting judgement against you does it get registered against you (for 6 years)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 17, 3:07 PM
    • 49,944 Posts
    • 63,345 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Nor am I worried about CCJs.. I dont think it would affect me in any way. I dont use credit.. and I have a mortgage.
    Except if you wanted to:

    - Move house (that always means a new mortgage, even if the same bank/company)
    - Remortgage to get a better rate
    - Get a new phone contract
    - Act as guarantor for a student child
    - Get a car loan
    - Use interest-free credit for any purchase

    But either way, if you lost and paid there is no CCJ on your record. And we don't see people losing.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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