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  • FIRST POST
    • Alliyaah
    • By Alliyaah 16th Jun 17, 10:28 AM
    • 6Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Alliyaah
    CEL court claim defence
    • #1
    • 16th Jun 17, 10:28 AM
    CEL court claim defence 16th Jun 17 at 10:28 AM
    Hi All

    I have sent the acknowledgement yesterday and now preparing the defence. I will say although my English is fluent i wasn't born in UK and the wording used in these defences is difficult for me to understand to be able to decide whether all these points in the generic defence apply to me. I dont want to make a fool of myself..
    I have appealed last year to the PCN, Of course CEL said my appeal was unsuccessful. So I replied to one more letter and then ignored the other letters. I have received "the letter before the county court claim" in November last year so can i still put the point about pre court protocol non compliance? I should deny the fact i ever received it and put it anyway?

    Also I was made to believe the parking was free at that time, as majority of car parks and street parking is free where I live after 6pm on weekdays. And i have recently noticed that this particular car park is advertised as free after 6pm and on Sundays on internet and i have printed that out as a proof for court. Not sure however if it was advertised free at the time of my "offence" which was a year ago but i would have thought yes since others do free so technically no one would want to use it. I have left my car for 12 min at 7.47pm and had i known its not free, i would have simply moved onto the street right the corner where its 100% free. And there is no option to buy 10 or 20 min. Only an hour which i didnt need anyway. Shall i put all this in my defence?? Some of it was it my appeal which was ignored.
    So please advise on these two questions. thank you in advance!!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Jun 17, 12:21 PM
    • 13,983 Posts
    • 21,963 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:21 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:21 PM
    You're just best copying a recent successful CEL defence rather than overthinking the various scenarios you describe.

    I have received "the letter before the county court claim" in November last year so can i still put the point about pre court protocol non compliance? I should deny the fact i ever received it and put it anyway?
    Never lie, otherwise you sink to their level. But where a court case is concerned you're getting into very dangerous territory.

    CEL have no intention of turning up in court, but you've got to jump through the hoops (by sending in a robust defence) to persuade them that you're too hot to handle and cause them to discontinue.

    Do you have another thread running on this case?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Alliyaah
    • By Alliyaah 16th Jun 17, 12:33 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Alliyaah
    • #3
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:33 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:33 PM
    No i dont have another thread. I posted yesterday in wrong place so it got deleted and i have posted today by starting a new thread, as advised.

    And no, i dont want lie of course so will i need to remove the line about the pre court protocol or leave it anyway?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Jun 17, 4:41 PM
    • 15,151 Posts
    • 19,082 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 16th Jun 17, 4:41 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Jun 17, 4:41 PM
    draft your defence based on the CEL template defences from 2017 , then post the draft , once the draft is seen then people may advise you on what to add , remove or change

    until you have posted it, nobody will advise you on the content because the content cannot be seen

    some of what you are asking could be put into the defence but a judge may ignore them

    but throwing in as much as you can is always a good strategy

    there are plenty of examples on here due to a rash of recent court claims, so no idea why you are not reading them and basing your own defence on those being prepared by others

    I will give you ONE example to start with

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5664484

    now start drafting , but dont copy it verbatim as you do not want to be lying under oath, so ensure the facts are accurate , bearing in mind there will be some stuff in the examples that dont apply in your case , and stuff that might apply to your case that arent in the examples

    its not just a copy and paste job, court is a serious business , so triple check what you write is truthful
    Last edited by Redx; 18-06-2017 at 2:16 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jun 17, 8:04 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,336 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 16th Jun 17, 8:04 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Jun 17, 8:04 PM
    Easy one, you only need to search the forum for 'CEL stayed claim'. Copy all the others.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Alliyaah
    • By Alliyaah 22nd Jun 17, 12:12 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Alliyaah
    • #6
    • 22nd Jun 17, 12:12 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Jun 17, 12:12 PM
    Ok so I have done my best to prepare this, i hope its ok. I copied majority of recent one posted by manxhero, i hope he doesn't mind, as the whole scenario is almost identical to mine and most relevant. I removed few bits about signage and Non existent ANPR signage as there are signs in this car park so i thought it should remove these parts?
    I would appreciate a lot any comments.

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Claim Number *****************
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited v ***********
    Defence Statement

    I am *********** defendant in this matter and I deny liability to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    The Claim Form issued on the 30th May 2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not
    correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited (Claimant’s Legal Representative)”.

    2. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction. I thought i had the letter but it turns out it was a different one

    b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    d) The additional particulars of claim (a photocopy of it) which are dated the 13th June 2017 arrived much later and are signed purportedly by Ashley Cohen Mr Cohen was reported to sign off witness statements under London Councils POPLA on behalf of landowners, for CEL POPLA cases falsely stating authority. It is submitted that he is a director of another company, Bemrose Mobile Limited which supplies the pay by phone payment methods for parking. Mr Cohen was a former director of Creative Contracts Ltd but has since resigned. Mr Cohen is therefore put to strict proof the capacity and authority he has in signing such statements.
    The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.
    The particulars do not detail:
    1. Proof or confirmation of the driver at the time of the alleged incident.
    2. Proof of the vehicle being there at the alleged time.
    3. How long or proof that the car was actually parked
    4. The vehicle type and colour
    5. Name and location of the car park
    6. Why the charge arose
    7. Proof that charges apply at the time of offence. This particular car park is free to use after 6pm on Monday to Saturday as advertised, along with are most of car parks in defendant’s area including street parking. The defendant visited the car park at 18:47 on Friday staying there 12 minutes therefore cannot understand why the claim has been made. Defendant is a regular user of this car park and aware of the charges which are paid when applicable during different hours.
    Had the Defendant was not made to believe the car park is not free to use, Defendant would happily park the car on the street around the corner for free. A proof (print out from internet) of the car park being advertised free at these times is enclosed.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    3. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not as there was no clear, transparent information about how to obtain a permit either inside or outside the site) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £326.83 for outstanding debt and damages.

    4. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred. I deny the Claimant is entitled to any interest whatsoever.

    5. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr. Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    6. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.

    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.

    (c) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    (d) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
    (e) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:!
    (f) the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (g) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    7. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    8. No legitimate interest - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    This Claimant files serial claims regarding sites where they have lost the contract, known as revenge claims and it believed this is one such case. This is not a legitimate reason to pursue a charge out of proportion with any loss or damages the true landowner could pursue.

    9. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    10. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.


    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) Failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 30th May 2017.

    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Signed
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jun 17, 10:18 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,336 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 22nd Jun 17, 10:18 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Jun 17, 10:18 PM
    I removed few bits about signage and Non existent ANPR signage as there are signs in this car park so i thought it should remove these parts?
    There are always signs in every car park! Every case we defend has signs up. But I reckon your defence is fine because signage being incapable of forming a contract is covered in your point #6 anyway.

    Email this as a signed & dated (then scanned) document, to the CCBC, using the email address discussed on pretty much every defence thread.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Alliyaah
    • By Alliyaah 23rd Jun 17, 2:37 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Alliyaah
    • #8
    • 23rd Jun 17, 2:37 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Jun 17, 2:37 PM
    thank you loads for help.
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