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  • FIRST POST
    • Hmaginness
    • By Hmaginness 20th Apr 17, 2:11 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Hmaginness
    Evicting my tenants
    • #1
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:11 PM
    Evicting my tenants 20th Apr 17 at 2:11 PM
    Hi, i wondered if anyone can help advise on the best way to evict my tenants as soon as I can as I wish to sell my house.

    We are buying another property and I don't want to have to pay second property stamp duty which is a lot of money seeing as I want to sell the house and will not be gaining from it

    The AST finished at beginning March, 2017, my tenants signed up for a 6 month contract, but they are refusing to leave until they get a council house

    I am serving a section 21 today with a lawyer so everything should be ok and not rejected. I have a DPS and have always repaired the house when asked

    My questions are:
    - Will the council now prioritise the tenants as they have an S21 for a new council house to avoid court?
    - If we do go to court can i claim back any court costs?
    - Am I legally allowed to sell the house with them as tenants, bearing in mind that another landlord will have to take them on which I imagine is unlikely
    - are there any ways of getting them higher on the Council list priority list? 1 tenant works (but is now off with stress!) 1 doesn't and they have 3 children.

    I cant afford to go to court just because they don't want to leave, and I quote they 'want a garden'!!

    this will cost me thousands in second stamp duty and also who knows what in court fees which just isnt fair!

    Any help appreciated

    thanks
    Last edited by Hmaginness; 20-04-2017 at 3:39 PM.
Page 1
    • Lokolo
    • By Lokolo 20th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    • 19,858 Posts
    • 14,948 Thanks
    Lokolo
    • #2
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    You chose to become a landlord and therefore you have to deal with the rules, regulations and the painful pitfalls.

    Others will come along and advise more but as far as I am aware the council won't prioritise housing until it gets as far as the courts, so yes you will need to go that far.
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 20th Apr 17, 2:25 PM
    • 9,120 Posts
    • 12,086 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    • #3
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:25 PM
    • #3
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:25 PM
    So you wish to evict these people simply so you can pay less tax than the next man/woman? Interesting stance: No criticism intended or meant by this.

    And (I'm not sure I've understood this - please clarify..) are you suggesting councils should prioritise rehousing & scarce council housing stock to assist private landlords & their tax contortions, to the disadvantage of others looking to be rehoused?? I would genuinely wish to understand if you do or don't, please. No criticism intended or meant by this question.

    Likely timescales if tenant digs their heels in (which they are perfectly entitled to..) is 40+ weeks - see...
    http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?75530-Time-to-repossess-statistics

    You have an absolute legal right to evict an otherwise blameless tenant using s21.

    The tenant has an absolute legal right to decline to leave until s21 expires, court consideration, possession order, bailiffs, typical timescale 40+ weeks.

    It is entirely legal to sell the property with tenants (Indeed, if in Scotland, Leases Act 1449 guarantees this): New owner becomes new landlord, even if sitting outside with a huge removal van, 3 ASB kids & a screaming hubbie. New owner has no more rights to evict or move in than you.

    Best regards
    Last edited by theartfullodger; 20-04-2017 at 2:30 PM.
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 20th Apr 17, 2:26 PM
    • 15,393 Posts
    • 21,015 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    • #4
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:26 PM
    • #4
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:26 PM
    Hi, i wondered if anyone can help advise on the best way to evict my tenants as soon as I can as I wish to sell my house.

    We are buying another property and I don't want to have to pay second property stamp duty which is a lot of money seeing as I want to sell the house and will not be gaining from it

    The AST finished at beginning May, 2017, my tenants signed up for a 6 month contract, but they are refusing to leave until they get a council house

    I am serving a section 21 today with a lawyer so everything should be ok and not rejected. I have a DPS and have always repaired the house when asked

    My questions are:
    - Will the council now prioritise the tenants as they have an S21 for a new council house to avoid court?
    - If we do go to court can i claim back any court costs?
    - Am I legally allowed to sell the house with them as tenants, bearing in mind that another landlord will have to take them on which I imagine is unlikely
    - are there any ways of getting them higher on the Council list priority list? 1 tenant works (but is now off with stress!) 1 doesn't and they have 3 children.

    I cant afford to go to court just because they don't want to leave, and I quote they 'want a garden'!!

    this will cost be thousands in second stamp duty and also who knows what in court fees which just isnt fair!

    Any help appreciated

    thanks
    Originally posted by Hmaginness
    If your tenants want a council house, then you have no choice but to take them to court once the S21 expires, then get a bailiff to evict them. This process can take MONTHS depending on the waiting list at both the court and for bailiffs.

    If you sell with tenants in situe, this massively limits your market on who would want the property.

    Are there lots of council properties with gardens? It might be worth talking to your tenants, as if it is an area with limited properties, they could end up in a bedsit!! Discuss their plans and the procedure with them...

    Have they always been paying their rent?

    Did you protect their deposit?

    As a LL, you NEED to be able to afford things like this. You can claim back all court costs from the tenant. You perhaps want to make them aware that they will be liable for your costs if they don't know this already.

    (do they have any assets or cash to pay any debt??)
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • Victor the Gink
    • By Victor the Gink 20th Apr 17, 2:28 PM
    • 153 Posts
    • 287 Thanks
    Victor the Gink
    • #5
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:28 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:28 PM
    So you wish to evict these people simply so you can pay less tax than the next man/woman? Interesting stance:
    .
    Originally posted by theartfullodger
    The Government's explicit stance when introducing this tax was to take property out of the hands of investors, thereby freeing it up for FTBers, so I have no idea why you are chiding the OP for doing exactly as his/her Government have asked.
    • Hmaginness
    • By Hmaginness 20th Apr 17, 2:31 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Hmaginness
    • #6
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:31 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:31 PM
    Thanks for your reply.

    Yes in hindsight I should have prepared for this, but in all of my years of renting I have never refused to leave when notice is served so I suppose Im surprised other people have the nerve to do this

    No they don't have any assets no so im imagining i wont get anything back

    they are paying me privately and are now choosing to go to a council property, so I dont understand why they cant move on and pay another landlord?
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 20th Apr 17, 2:32 PM
    • 9,120 Posts
    • 12,086 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    • #7
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:32 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:32 PM
    The Government's explicit stance when introducing this tax was to take property out of the hands of investors, thereby freeing it up for FTBers, so I have no idea why you are chiding the OP for doing exactly as his/her Government have asked.
    Originally posted by Victor the Gink
    Thank you for your kind thoughts: I am not chiding the OP, as my post makes clear.
    No criticism intended or meant by this.
    Cheers, Artful (Landlord btw..)
    Last edited by theartfullodger; 20-04-2017 at 2:37 PM.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 20th Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    • 1,010 Posts
    • 678 Thanks
    saajan_12
    • #8
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    If they haven't done anything 'wrong' (e.g. rent arrears, significant damage etc) and you don't want to move back in, I believe the only non-fault eviction route is Section 21 notice. Check the below else it will be invalid:
    - Deposit protected and prescribed information served OR deposit returned
    - Using form 6a as tenancy started after Oct 2015
    - Gives 2 full months notice from when the tenant received it and was served within last 6 months
    - 'How to rent' booklet given
    - Gas safe cert given
    - EPC cert given
    - Tenant's names, property address, dates etc correct

    Note the tenant doesn't have to leave when the notice expires, in which case you'd have to apply to the court for a possession order giving a date to leave by. If they don't you'd have to get bailiffs to remove the tenants. You can claim the actual court fee from the tenants, but beware of the following:
    * recovering the money is another battle (you need a forwarding address, and bailiffs may not be successful)
    * Avoidable costs cannot be claimed e.g. solicitors, repeated court dates due to invalid notices

    Will it get that far?
    Yes it can, and likely will if the tenants are looking for a council house. While councils are not supposed to 'gate keep' they often don't act until the tenants are physically homeless by being chucked out by bailiffs. While they have a roof, there's little chance of jumping the queue, so be patient and use the time to triple check all the above is in order so there's no need to re-serve valid notice.

    Sell with tenant? Yes you can but beware:
    * Market limited to investors only, who are happy to take on your tenant as opposed to their own. Best of 2 offers is likely lower than best of 10 offers.
    * Marketing photos, viewings and surveys need to happen with the tenants in residence. Rights to access aside, if they want to prevent access there's little you can do in the short term. The place may be left less flattering than you'd like which may put potential buyers off, or delay the process.
    Last edited by saajan_12; 20-04-2017 at 2:41 PM.
    • AlexMac
    • By AlexMac 20th Apr 17, 2:37 PM
    • 1,966 Posts
    • 1,727 Thanks
    AlexMac
    • #9
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:37 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:37 PM
    Others will advise you on the leagalities, but I had the experience of being asked by one of my tenants (who was also a friend of a family member) if I would evict her. She asked me to serve notice because although she was accepted in principle as deserving a Council House or flat as she we was then a single parent, the Coucil in my area would only rehouse "homeless" people. So she had to become homeless, which was rigidly defined!

    In her case, the Housing Officers were honest with her, and explained that a notice to qauit was not enough; she actually had to have a court order and a baliffs' eviction notice!

    I found it ridiculous that the Council were using the Courts to prioritise their housing waiting list but there it was. She had the right bit of paper.

    So I went along with the charade; took her to court; (We didn't have to attend- just a paper process which didn't cost much), got an eviction order but then I simply rang the Court Baliff to tell'em not to bother attending.

    So if your Council is anything similar (and policies may vary by area or may have changed) try to get her to get a clear reply from them about what she actually needs to do? Most Council housing staff are human (and humane) so hopefully they will act in a helpful way, rather than adding to your tenants' stress.

    I remember how delighted my mum was to get a Council flat (admittedly only a walk-up tenement block in Brixton in 1954) after a succession of pretty grim temporary accomodation alternatives; and it changed our lives. I settled to a single school, as opposed to a succession of them, did well, and am now sitting pretty

    So good luck helping your tenants out- everyone deserves a break!
    Last edited by AlexMac; 20-04-2017 at 2:40 PM. Reason: Life's cruel enough- lets not twist the knife
    • Hmaginness
    • By Hmaginness 20th Apr 17, 2:38 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Hmaginness
    I am not profiting from this property and merely want to sell and move on. I would never dream of digging my heels in and refusing to leave a property and so of course want to do what i can to avoid a bill of £000's
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 20th Apr 17, 2:39 PM
    • 28,657 Posts
    • 72,984 Thanks
    Mojisola
    Yes in hindsight I should have prepared for this, but in all of my years of renting I have never refused to leave when notice is served so I suppose Im surprised other people have the nerve to do this
    Originally posted by Hmaginness
    If they have taken advice about how to get a council property, they will have been told to stay where they are until the court forces them out.

    If they move from your property to another landlord's flat, they will go right to the bottom of the housing list.

    Do they realise that the council may not provide a house and a garden as they wish - they may be in temporary accommodation for some time and may only be offered flats - it depends on what housing is available.
    • pimento
    • By pimento 20th Apr 17, 2:40 PM
    • 5,252 Posts
    • 6,793 Thanks
    pimento

    they are paying me privately and are now choosing to go to a council property, so I dont understand why they cant move on and pay another landlord?
    Originally posted by Hmaginness
    Really? I presume it's because they are unlikely to find themselves being thrown out at short notice so the council can save some tax.
    "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." -- Red Adair
    • Tiddlywinks
    • By Tiddlywinks 20th Apr 17, 2:41 PM
    • 5,325 Posts
    • 18,472 Thanks
    Tiddlywinks
    Yes in hindsight I should have prepared for this, but in all of my years of renting I have never refused to leave when notice is served so I suppose Im surprised other people have the nerve to do this

    ......

    they are paying me privately and are now choosing to go to a council property, so I dont understand why they cant move on and pay another landlord?
    Originally posted by Hmaginness
    The 'nerve'?

    They are exercising their right to use the full legal process.... It's not personal.
    • dirtycredit
    • By dirtycredit 20th Apr 17, 2:45 PM
    • 143 Posts
    • 241 Thanks
    dirtycredit
    The council won't even acknowledge them until they are actually homeless and only then if they are vulnerable or have very young children so I wouldn't look to the council to speed things up.
    • fairy lights
    • By fairy lights 20th Apr 17, 2:45 PM
    • 8,357 Posts
    • 28,086 Thanks
    fairy lights
    I cant afford to go to court just because they don't want to leave, and I quote they 'want a garden'!!
    Originally posted by Hmaginness
    And I imagine the tenant can't afford to move again after 6 months, just because you, and I quote, 'Don't want to pay stamp duty on a second property'.
    • PasturesNew
    • By PasturesNew 20th Apr 17, 2:50 PM
    • 61,012 Posts
    • 356,382 Thanks
    PasturesNew
    New contract 1 May 2017, 6 months to 31 October 2017. You can adjust the dates as fits.
    If you issue a Section 21 today then they should expect to leave on 31 October. They have said they won't, so you'll have to expect to start the proceedings once they've not left really.

    If they expect/want a Council house, the Council will probably advise them to "stay put until the bailiffs turf you out, then come to our offices".

    It could be early next year before you get it back.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 20th Apr 17, 2:51 PM
    • 2,109 Posts
    • 3,142 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    The 'nerve'?

    They are exercising their right to use the full legal process.... It's not personal.
    Originally posted by Tiddlywinks
    Do you think that it's a good thing for people to do that, with all the associated costs to the court system as well as to the landlord, IF ( and I stress if) they are perfectly capable of finding another rented house in reasonable timescales?
    • ognum
    • By ognum 20th Apr 17, 2:53 PM
    • 4,506 Posts
    • 6,795 Thanks
    ognum
    I do have first hand knowledge of this process. I wanted to sell a flat I own and my tenant wanted council accommodation so I went through the process.

    Issues S21 tenant remains in the property for two months until tenancy expires.

    LL issues documentation for possession to the courts

    LL waits for court date, variable could be two months.

    LL and tenant go to court, if paperwork is issued correctly then judge orders possession. This will be at least two weeks but as much as 6 weeks away depending on how he feels about the case.

    LL waits for tenants to leave.

    Tenant doesn't leave LL appoints baliff.

    Baliff takes 1 - 8 weeks to attend depending on work load.

    Baliff attends the flat is yours at this point the council will help with housing.

    If at any time before this the tenant leaves they will be intentionally homeless and will not get council housing.

    For many tenants it's not that they cannot pay the rent on private rental it is that they cannot afford the deposit and referencing and do not want to be moved on again in a couple of years. You should be sympathetic to this, you would not want someone else to decide how long you can stay in your home.

    So the process takes a minimum of four to five months and could take longer. The good news is the tenant must pay rent throughout, or they will again be intentionally homeless.

    That's the system!
    • ognum
    • By ognum 20th Apr 17, 2:54 PM
    • 4,506 Posts
    • 6,795 Thanks
    ognum
    The 'nerve'?

    They are exercising their right to use the full legal process.... It's not personal.
    Originally posted by Tiddlywinks
    This is the system, you can't buck the system!
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 20th Apr 17, 2:55 PM
    • 9,120 Posts
    • 12,086 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    Others will advise you on the leagalities, but I had the experience of being asked by one of my tenants (who was also a friend of a family member) if I would evict her. She asked me to serve notice because although she was accepted in principle as deserving a Council House or flat as she we was then a single parent, the Coucil in my area would only rehouse "homeless" people. So she had to become homeless, which was rigidly defined!

    In her case, the Housing Officers were honest with her, and explained that a notice to qauit was not enough; she actually had to have a court order and a baliffs' eviction notice!

    I found it ridiculous that the Council were using the Courts to prioritise their housing waiting list but there it was. She had the right bit of paper.............
    Originally posted by AlexMac
    Understand your experience: However, had the council been fully aware that the eviction happened because she asked for it, then the tenant should (legally) have been found "intentionally homeless" and not rehoused, not anywhere...

    Housing Act 1996 s191 etc etc etc...
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/52/section/191
    191 Becoming homeless intentionally.

    (1) A person becomes homeless intentionally if he deliberately does or fails to do anything in consequence of which he ceases to occupy accommodation which is available for his occupation and which it would have been reasonable for him to continue to occupy.
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