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  • FIRST POST
    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 24th Mar 17, 7:12 AM
    • 29Posts
    • 19Thanks
    maddiction
    Indigo, St. Albans Station - Rigmount Road
    • #1
    • 24th Mar 17, 7:12 AM
    Indigo, St. Albans Station - Rigmount Road 24th Mar 17 at 7:12 AM
    Hi,
    Looking for some advice with an issue with Indigo Parking at St. Albans Station (Ridgemount road).
    Parked yesterday afternoon at the station, did the pay by phone and came back last night to find one of their little love letters…. The ‘crime’ Parking in a reserved bay….!!

    Only they seem to have neglected to actually mark all their reserved bays as ‘reserved bays’ (surly that’s reasonable grounds in itself, no?), furthermore there is a big yellow ‘Parking’ painted on the ground along the front of the bays (I would think that’s a reasonable assumption they want customers to park there, in those bays, right??) and should I mention the bay I chose was also slap bang next to one of the big grey machines that is plastered with words like ‘Parking’, ‘Pay here’ & ‘Phone this Number’….. (again surly a reasonable assumption, this is a place to park??!!).

    Now first though I have is; ‘Go on, shall we try asking a judge what (s)he things about this’ as I’m interested to see just how they would be advised they go shove their little love note up their own…… As well as how the parking company would explain the validity of their speculative invoice.

    So though I’d check in with the knowledgeable folk here before I march off and have some fun with this bunch of idiots, with that seems so obviously wrong… Now what would the best course of action be? Immediately take them to task on the matter and ask them to politely ‘shove it’ and invite them to arrange a court date if they don’t wish to (I personally can’t see any, even an unreasonable Judge, siding with the parking company on this… there is just no grounds for the pCN what so ever….)? Ignore it completely…? Or wait for the NTK and then go the POPLA route (In which case I would need to read up on as it’s been years since I’ve needed to know anything about and tbh seems like a waste of my time in this instance, given there incapability to mark their parking bays in this area of the car park as ‘restricted’ or otherwise not for general use… just seems quite a length to need to go to and just seems wrong that I would have to go to such lengths to deal with such a silly matter and what feels more like ‘entrapment’ been a once in a blue moon user of this carpark….)? Or something else?

    Any thoughts greatly appreciated on this.

    Also do MSE parking forum have any stickers or similar available, would be nice to leave a few pointers to some of the less well informed around locations such as this..?

    Thanks

    m
    Last edited by maddiction; 01-06-2017 at 1:46 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 24th Mar 17, 9:03 AM
    • 14,735 Posts
    • 18,514 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 24th Mar 17, 9:03 AM
    • #2
    • 24th Mar 17, 9:03 AM
    bylaws apply on railway land , so what you need to do is read any recent INDIGO railway TOC threads in the last 12 months and follow the same path through appeal (blue text appeal template) and POPLA (typical railway popla appeal)

    this means you WILL have to do the research and the work , because at the moment you dont understand the difference between railway land and magistrates court which uses magistrates and not judges (due to bylaws) and its the TOC who enforce it , and private land and civil law with judges presiding which INDIGO are pretending that they can do on behalf of the TOC (they cant and that is why popla ruled against them)

    it will become clear once you have

    1) read the NEWBIES sticky thread

    2) read maybe 10 railway threads (especially about INDIGO) over the last 12 months

    3) read the parking prankster blogs about where POPLA stand on railway bylaws issues

    come back when you are up to speed (and after using the blue text template appeal on day 26 - unless its a hire or lease car)

    and dont expect one liner answers, its complicated, so do the work please and learn wht the difference is between the 2 fundamental issues regarding railway land , including who does the markings etc

    please read this one too , it may explain a lot to you

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5622789
    Last edited by Redx; 24-03-2017 at 9:22 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 24th Mar 17, 5:01 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    • #3
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:01 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:01 PM
    Thanks for the response, currently doing a bit of reading..

    Quick question, is it worth making a complaint to the train operator in this instance, asking them to cancel it or would that just help tip off the ppc ...(I'm not clear with the bylaws if that's something to do or not..?).

    Also is a ticket sighting railway bylaws even valid, is it not a case of been a criminal not civil matter, i'm confused from what I have read so far if the ppc's love note is a breach of contract claim or a breach of railway bylaw penalty. the ppc offer a 'discount' if paid within x days.. but I have read a penalty can not be discounted..... **confused**....

    thx
    m
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 24th Mar 17, 5:09 PM
    • 39,638 Posts
    • 79,284 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:09 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:09 PM
    The TOC can take you to the magistrates' court for trespass. It is not a good idea therefore to complain to them.

    Indigo are citing byelaws to frighten you into paying, but if it did go to court, the PPC wouldn't get any money.

    If you tell PoPLA that byelaws apply and the land is not relevant as detailed in POFA 20012, the keeper is not liable, and you will win.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 24-03-2017 at 5:12 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 24th Mar 17, 5:48 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    • #5
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:48 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:48 PM
    Thanks Fruitcake,

    While I understand the TOC could try and take the matter to a Magistrates Court, they have no basis to and I can't see how they could possibly win; I've a photograph of the parking bays with a BIG yellow 'Parking' written across the front of them, as well as pictures of the pay machine next to the car, and the surroundings showing NO signage to indicate the marked bays are 'reserved'. I also have my invoice for the parking fee paid. Could they still try to pursue 'trespass'?????!!!!

    Also what would they gain from trying to take a semi regular, fare paying customer to Court for what is basically a case of 'your not parked in the right place, only you have to guess where is the right place and where isn't...?

    So my understanding is to wait (while doing some reading/research) for the NTK and then appeal/ popla as the registered keeper at which point popla should tell them they can't peruse the registered keeper because it's not relevant land and thus can't use the registered keepers details/PoFA2012?

    m
    Last edited by maddiction; 24-03-2017 at 5:52 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 24th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    • 39,638 Posts
    • 79,284 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    Thanks Fruitcake,

    While I understand the TOC could try and take the matter to a Magistrates Court, they have no basis to and I can't see how they could possibly win; I've a photograph of the parking bays with a BIG yellow 'Parking' written across the front of them, as well as pictures of the pay machine next to the car, and the surroundings showing NO signage to indicate the marked bays are 'reserved'. I also have my invoice for the parking fee paid. Could they still try to pursue 'trespass'?????!!!!

    Also what would they gain from trying to take a semi regular, fare paying customer to Court for what is basically a case of 'your not parked in the right place, only you have to guess where is the right place and where isn't...?

    m
    Originally posted by maddiction
    It is unlikely that the TOC will ever know anything about this, and if they saw your evidence I don't think they would bother. What I'm getting at is the PPC can't take you to small claims court for an alleged byelaw offence, only the TOC can do court, but not for a parking infringement. It would have to be for trespass and that would have to be in the magistrates court.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 24th Mar 17, 6:06 PM
    • 14,735 Posts
    • 18,514 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 24th Mar 17, 6:06 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Mar 17, 6:06 PM
    this smoke and mirrors is designed to catch people out , dont fall for it

    because INDIGO are trying to pursue it as a pcn under parking rules, follow the same process as dozens of others before you to get it thrown out at popla as a bylaws issue

    all the guff about bylaws etc is for the TOC to deal with and you have had nothing from the TOC (not likely to get anything either) and the TOC have 6 months to try anything at magistrates court

    for all we know NETWORK RAIL may have to do the painting of the car park, not your concern

    just deal with the pcn as not relevant on railway land due to bylaws being in place and the keeper cannot be held liable as POFA2012 does not apply (dont try to reinvent the wheel)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 29th Mar 17, 11:21 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    • #8
    • 29th Mar 17, 11:21 AM
    • #8
    • 29th Mar 17, 11:21 AM
    Thanks for the reply's thus far.

    No intention of falling for the 'Smoke and mirrors' just trying to understand them.

    Obviously the talk of bylaws, penalties, parking charges etcetc are very muddy water when you know very little about them.


    Think I understand what I'm doing. Currentyl waiting for a NTK to arrive (after 28+1 days after the love note left on the vehicle, but not more than a further 28 days from that date?!).

    Question (This is more curiosity than anything else, I understand the POPLa route to get it sorted out) : Do Indigo's 'Appeals' department actually look at appeals, as they don't have a leg to stand on, on this one (I checked last time I walked through the car park; no signage what so ever on these bays, beyond 'Parking' written on the floor... Others further away do however have notices at the end to indicate they are indeed reserved).

    Anyway on to the point of this post:

    Just wondering;, as I paid for my parking and they have my Credit Card/account details (which I presume would include my address, though part of the question), do they even need to apply to the DVLA under the POFA, or would it invalidate the NTK if they used the payment details to issue, would I ever know if they had etc (I realise the payment details don't have to match the registered keeper, but I wouldn't put it past this sort of company to avoid paying the cost of obtaining from the DVLA and try it on....as that is there general MO) ?

    Thx!

    m
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 29th Mar 17, 12:06 PM
    • 7,149 Posts
    • 7,237 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #9
    • 29th Mar 17, 12:06 PM
    • #9
    • 29th Mar 17, 12:06 PM
    indigo dob not do appeals , they are handled by a debt collector called ZZPS

    the "appeal accepted" rate is not very high
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Mar 17, 12:20 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,528 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would not wait for a NTK. Indigo being a BPA firm, the advice in the NEWBIES thread is to appeal at day 26 after a windscreen PCN (be careful of Indigo's webpage which others have warned, seems to default to making a person say who was driving...but others have said it can be got round).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 1st Apr 17, 9:05 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    Thanks Coupon -mad!

    Think I got a little confused reading through older posts...

    I'm still perplexed how these 'companies' are are aloud to operate like this using lies and bully boy tactics.. etc... Goes compleatly against the UK's rule of law 'Innocent until proven guilty'......

    m
    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 18th Apr 17, 2:40 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    Just about to submit my appeal as it's coming up to day 26, quick couple of questions:

    1/ If I sign it as the registered keeper with my name and address, does that not mean they do not need to contact the DVLA to obtain the keepers details (and cost them to do so?), or do they need to do that to to verify before they can send out a NTK? I ask as the blue text mentions the data protection ect they would be bound by if they request the details from the DVLA

    2/ The 'love note' is titled 'Penalty Notice' My understanding is only a court can issue a 'Penalty' and a private company such as Indigo certainly can't, is that correct and if so is that worth a mention in an initial appeal?

    I've just today walked through the same car park and noticed quite a few cars that have done exactly the same.... and covered in 'Penalty Notices'...... I do hope non of them actually send them any money if they have paid to park there....!!

    Cheers,

    m
    Last edited by maddiction; 19-04-2017 at 2:42 AM.
    • JodeeMcD
    • By JodeeMcD 5th May 17, 7:01 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    JodeeMcD
    any update on this Maddiction? Im in a similar position myself
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th May 17, 10:12 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,528 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    JodeeMcD you are a legend with a 'I won in court versus a PPC' t-shirt already!

    Indigo ones are ALWAYS won by us at POPLA. All you need to do is get them to POPLA stage and win.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 5th May 17, 11:17 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    No update, submitted my 'Appeal' 16 or so days ago... nothing back as yet...

    Is it the same car park or just a similar case JodeeMcD?

    m
    • JodeeMcD
    • By JodeeMcD 5th May 17, 11:49 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    JodeeMcD
    JodeeMcD you are a legend with a 'I won in court versus a PPC' t-shirt already!

    Indigo ones are ALWAYS won by us at POPLA. All you need to do is get them to POPLA stage and win.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Ha thank you! I almost feel embarrassed to have another ticket but at least I am much better prepared to fight it this time, I quite enjoyed my day in court ;-)

    Different train station car park Maddiction (Three Bridges) but I got a ticket for parking in a 'reserved bay' where the signage was almost non-existent - the only sign to say these bays were now restricted was 20 meters away, high up on a pole in very small writing, invisible at the time of parking as it was unlit and early morning. I took lots of photo this time to support my claim.

    I appealed to Indigo directly but they rejected my appeal. Annoyingly I also had to tick the box stating I was the driver (no option for registered keeper only) as without doing this you cannot get a Popla code. I wrote that in my initial appeal and stated WITH PREJUDICE so I'm hoping that won't be an issue POFA wise.

    I've just submitted my Popla appeal, including all the railway bylaw stuff in addition to signage and so I will keep you posed. Please do the same Maddiction!

    Any idea how long Popla appeals take?

    As ever this site and the people on it are brilliant, thanks so much for all the advice :-)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th May 17, 12:18 AM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,528 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Any idea how long Popla appeals take?
    About 2 weeks max, before I predict Indigo will fold! They can't win:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113283

    Hahaha!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 6th May 17, 9:07 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    Ah, so they have form for this (expected, but not checked).. Exactly the same situation with me, they have deemed certain bays 'reserved' but not bothered to actually tell anyone driving in to the 'car park'.

    Thought you may have been caught out there too.. I had noticed a small sea of little yellow love notes the other week when I got off the train and walked through the same car park (people likely having done exactly what I had done, turned up late more, seen a space, says 'parking' across the front, next to a ticket machine and parked..), What a great racket! I hadn't parked there I must add, I usually park further away and walk, much healthier and doesn't add to the coffers for the likes of Indigo.

    I'd quite like to see them take it to court and explain how they think they have a case....

    But anyway... So how long did they take to reject your initial 'appeal', I think i'm on day 17 when there email conformation said 'with in 14 days'.

    With regard to the online 'appeal' form: You can un-tick the 'Drive' box and I think I just filled in rubbish in the other text boxes (the 'checking is usually rudimentary and just checks for things like an '@' in an email address etc) as I am under no obligation to tell them who the driver was.... they can insist on what they want on there from but.....

    m
    Last edited by maddiction; 06-05-2017 at 9:09 AM. Reason: Fat fingers / typos...
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 6th May 17, 10:32 AM
    • 39,638 Posts
    • 79,284 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Ah, so they have form for this (expected, but not checked).. Exactly the same situation with me, they have deemed certain bays 'reserved' but not bothered to actually tell anyone driving in to the 'car park'.

    Thought you may have been caught out there too.. I had noticed a small sea of little yellow love notes the other week when I got off the train and walked through the same car park (people likely having done exactly what I had done, turned up late more, seen a space, says 'parking' across the front, next to a ticket machine and parked..), What a great racket! I hadn't parked there I must add, I usually park further away and walk, much healthier and doesn't add to the coffers for the likes of Indigo.

    I'd quite like to see them take it to court and explain how they think they have a case....

    But anyway... So how long did they take to reject your initial 'appeal', I think i'm on day 17 when there email conformation said 'with in 14 days'.

    With regard to the online 'appeal' form: You can un-tick the 'Drive' box and I think I just filled in rubbish in the other text boxes (the 'checking is usually rudimentary and just checks for things like an '@' in an email address etc) as I am under no obligation to tell them who the driver was.... they can insist on what they want on there from but.....

    m
    Originally posted by maddiction
    If you use the car park regularly and often see PPC love letters, could you print off some flyers pointing people here and stick them under the wipers of infected cars?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • maddiction
    • By maddiction 6th May 17, 10:46 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    maddiction
    That was my very first though (see the bottom line of my first post), but I got no response so I am assuming it's not wanted drawing to much attention to the forum?!

    ( I asked about stickers as I don't regularly come through the car park at times I would see the 'love notes' on cars, I tend to be out early and back late if i'm on the train... very rare I come back late afternoon/sensible time of day....).

    m
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