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  • FIRST POST
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 29th Jan 17, 6:45 PM
    • 184Posts
    • 160Thanks
    claretmad62
    Excel BW again
    • #1
    • 29th Jan 17, 6:45 PM
    Excel BW again 29th Jan 17 at 6:45 PM
    Hi to all

    Spent quite a bit of time reading others threads, finding it all a big learning curve.


    State of play, Excel along with BW currently chasing my wife for a PCN from early 2012 (pre PoFA) On her behalf I have been corresponding with BW and at the moment we are 20 days into County Court sending our initial defence to the claimant. Been on with the WS, as it's over 5 years ago we've not got a clue who was driving....quite a few people have used my wife's car historically. There seems to be different views on what should be in the WS, and what we should take to the hearing as our court bundle. As it's pretty PoFA, what do you think our plan of defence/ attack should be


    Cheers
Page 1
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 29th Jan 17, 6:58 PM
    • 583 Posts
    • 887 Thanks
    catfunt
    • #2
    • 29th Jan 17, 6:58 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Jan 17, 6:58 PM
    A search for "Bw Legal Pre POFA" on this forum should reveal some similar cases which will help you with your initial defence.

    When is the deadline?
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jan 17, 7:12 PM
    • 48,261 Posts
    • 61,746 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 29th Jan 17, 7:12 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Jan 17, 7:12 PM
    BrainStorm is working on a WS and skeleton argument at the moment. Different case than yours but shows how to set it out (facts in the WS, skeleton argument has the legal arguments like pre-POFA/no keeper liability).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 29th Jan 17, 7:39 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    • #4
    • 29th Jan 17, 7:39 PM
    • #4
    • 29th Jan 17, 7:39 PM
    Ok, will look those up.thanks for the quick replies. I got letter dated 9th Jan saying a copy of my defence was being served and they have 28 days. Without going into to much detail at the moment, I nearly missed putting in my defence on the MCOL Site...ended up being a 2 liner ..my own fault ! But at least I got it in

    What's your views on pre POFA claims ?
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 29th Jan 17, 7:57 PM
    • 583 Posts
    • 887 Thanks
    catfunt
    • #5
    • 29th Jan 17, 7:57 PM
    • #5
    • 29th Jan 17, 7:57 PM
    What defence did you send in to MCOL?
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 29th Jan 17, 8:10 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    • #6
    • 29th Jan 17, 8:10 PM
    • #6
    • 29th Jan 17, 8:10 PM
    1/ No contract as POFA not adheered to.
    2/ No contracual obligation to claimant by defendant as no contract offered


    As I said, totally my fault but with work commitments I totally lost the timeline. I realise the POFA statement means little. But I visited another site and was advised to put this in a pretty damn quick.
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 29th Jan 17, 8:13 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    • #7
    • 29th Jan 17, 8:13 PM
    • #7
    • 29th Jan 17, 8:13 PM
    Been reading MadHatter752 posts, and know exactly how he feels...felt.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 30th Jan 17, 8:30 AM
    • 6,696 Posts
    • 5,695 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 30th Jan 17, 8:30 AM
    • #8
    • 30th Jan 17, 8:30 AM
    / No contract as POFA not adheered to.

    But surely POFA did not exist then I do not understand the problem, they have to prove OTBP that your wife was the driver. If they cannor, Kerching. Have they mentioned Elliott v Loake?

    Here is a plan, look the judge straight in the eye and speak thusly

    Sir/Madam. as this event took place over five years ago, neither my wife or I can recall who the driver was, however, on the balance of probablliies it was probably me.

    Then, when they take you to court say, Sir/Madam, we have discussed this, and now think that OTBOP, my wife was the driver.

    Keep this up until they go bust.
    Last edited by The Deep; 30-01-2017 at 8:40 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jan 17, 8:53 AM
    • 5,525 Posts
    • 7,105 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 30th Jan 17, 8:53 AM
    • #9
    • 30th Jan 17, 8:53 AM
    I guess BWLegal are deaf, dumb and blind
    Last edited by beamerguy; 30-01-2017 at 10:31 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 30th Jan 17, 10:19 AM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    No mention of Elliott v Loake, Parking Eye v Beavis yes.

    She also has another one from post Pofa...same place (rather not mention location) where they mention Elliott v Loake...but not Beavis. This one seemed to have disappeared, then came back after a 4 month sabbatical !
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jan 17, 10:54 AM
    • 5,525 Posts
    • 7,105 Thanks
    beamerguy
    No mention of Elliott v Loake, Parking Eye v Beavis yes.

    She also has another one from post Pofa...same place (rather not mention location) where they mention Elliott v Loake...but not Beavis. This one seemed to have disappeared, then came back after a 4 month sabbatical !
    Originally posted by claretmad62
    The normal rubbish spouted by BWLegal.

    The Beavis case was late 2015.
    Beavis overstayed by an hour and his claim was for an unfair charge. Probably your case has nothing to do with this.

    Elliot v Loake was a criminal case whereby forensics was used.
    This has nothing to do with you with no comparison.
    The courts have already dismissed EvL AS NOT APPLICABLE.

    BWLegal scratching at straws yet again.

    Plus in court, BWLegal have been proven to be incompetent

    Pre POFA (Which Excel do not use) simply means they must prove who the driver is/was and that's why they try to use cases that are simply NOT applicable

    It is a figment of their imagination which real judges in court do not take kindly to.
    In recent cases, judges have dismissed them in as little as 10 mins.
    The judges know all about BWLegal
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 30th Jan 17, 11:11 AM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    Thanks for that beamerguy, will continue to read other threads and probably come back with other queries if you don't mind.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jan 17, 11:21 AM
    • 5,525 Posts
    • 7,105 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thanks for that beamerguy, will continue to read other threads and probably come back with other queries if you don't mind.
    Originally posted by claretmad62
    You are welcome here any time for help to defeat the scammers
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 30th Jan 17, 3:38 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    Could you please link me to the Brainstorm thread...cant seem to find it

    Cheers
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jan 17, 3:46 PM
    • 48,261 Posts
    • 61,746 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Nope, no link (that doesn't help newbies use the forum confidently, which is vital), look for his thread in the latest few pages.

    The S in his username is a dollar sign.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 30th Jan 17, 4:10 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    Ah, rightio...will give it a shot


    Cheers
    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 30th Jan 17, 5:09 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    Ok, had a decent look over Brain$torms thread, the issue I have is the actual Witness Statement. As it is over 5 years ago nobody can remember the occurrence ...and certainly not who was driving. So I cannot really give a descriptive happening of the day, all I am doing is suggesting whoever was driving paid, so it was either the machine that was faulty or possibly the cameras double dipped the car..its all I have to offer. That's what is worrying me, How should I attack this ?

    Is my two liner defence going to count against me...or do I now need to go into more detail and with what. Do I approach this in a different way because it is pre PoFA, and if so how ?

    Sorry to be a pain, but if in a few days I'm getting a letter saying its court..I want to be confident that I stand a reasonable chance

    Cheers
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jan 17, 5:34 PM
    • 48,261 Posts
    • 61,746 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Is my two liner defence going to count against me...
    Yes, that was awful advice. You could have thrown a decent one together by copying & adapting one from here and emailed it to the Northampton Court in time. Maybe you even had a day or two to spare? Too late now.

    so it was either the machine that was faulty or possibly the cameras double dipped the car..its all I have to offer.
    No it's not, you can say on the balance of probabilities it was not you driving (include a copy of the insurance policy if other named drivers were on it at the time or just state that at least 3 family members used that car, if true). And remind that court that the burden remains with the claimant to evidence that you were that driver and that you did not pay & display (not just some ANPR photos).

    And from your two line defence:
    1/ No contract as POFA not adheered to.
    2/ No contractual obligation to claimant by defendant as no contract offered
    You can also attack the signage evidence because of your point #2. Was this at the Peel Centre? If so, then your WS can use the Cutts case which proved that signage was woeful around that time.

    I would also throw in at skeleton argument stage (before the hearing) this FOI:

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/139931/response/342099/attach/html/2/FOIR3196%20Thorn.pdf.html

    The point being, Excel were banned by the DVLA later in 2012, for stating or implying in their documentation/signage that the vehicle owner/keeper is liable for the payment of charges imposed in respect of parking contraventions, or that the vehicle owner/keeper had a legal responsibility to provide information as to who the driver was. ''This behaviour is a significant breach of the AOS Code of Practice'' said the DVLA at the time about pre-POFA cases.

    So it seems Excel are hoping that this has been forgotten and that they are now able to imply to the courts, exactly what they were banned for in 2012 by the DVLA! They imply keepers are to be judged for not responding to non-POFA letters and are implying that they can somehow use a back-door method to hold keepers liable. If that were true, why did Parliament enact Schedule 4? Obviously Excel's argument has no weight.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-01-2017 at 5:37 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • claretmad62
    • By claretmad62 30th Jan 17, 8:49 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    claretmad62
    Ok, I get it....I panicked. As long as I haven't totally cocked it up. Is there a way I can put up what I've already done on my WS without others seeing....or am I being a little over the top.

    No it wasn't the Peel centre
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jan 17, 8:54 PM
    • 48,261 Posts
    • 61,746 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Was it the cash-cow of Cavendish retail park? You can tell us!

    You can show your WS here, no need to hide it. We do these openly and people win. You are nowhere near WS stage though. You haven't even had your Directions Questionnaire yet, then Notice of Allocation...
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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