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  • FIRST POST
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 13th Oct 16, 11:00 AM
    • 1,563Posts
    • 336Thanks
    Chomeur
    Running application on website
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 16, 11:00 AM
    Running application on website 13th Oct 16 at 11:00 AM
    Here's a follow on from a thread of mine four years ago (I never understand the purpose of closing threads): http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4178415&page=2. I'm still working on it, amongst other things.

    It's been reiterated to me that companies are very reluctant to install programs onto their systems these days, one bank telling me that it could take them a year to get permission internally to do it. So my only option seems to be to have the program run over the Internet. InsideInsurance was saying in the previous thread that dragging elements is now possible in html and I think that I can now see how everything I need to do would be done using html and javascript. It would be nice to reuse my existing vb code but I cannot get Microsoft Visual Studio to run without hanging all the time, so I would rather develop in something like Notepad++. I think that may rule out Asp.net.

    Ultimately I'm looking at something like Google Docs with a very lengthy javascript file and a bit of html. Like Google Docs I would want my users to be able to save details of what they did, so that would have to be done on the server, with Python or something like that. But the vast majority of the code would have to be on the client side. I see that Google Docs has about 60,000 lines of code on the client side, so clearly this is possible.

    Grateful for any comments on my choice of technologies.
Page 1
    • Fightsback
    • By Fightsback 13th Oct 16, 12:28 PM
    • 2,456 Posts
    • 1,420 Thanks
    Fightsback
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 16, 12:28 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 16, 12:28 PM
    Consult a professional, severe security risks may abound by shoddy coding.
    Science isn't exact, it's only confidence within limits.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 13th Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    • 23,281 Posts
    • 9,175 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    They close threads because of spammers sometimes, possibly someone trying to flog you a hosting package on some virus ridden server.

    Its all about trust though. Even some well known sites get broken into and redirected to downloads from a different site.

    Linux Mint had an issue where someone had got in and redirected downloads to infected installs.

    Who will use your program? What sort of data will it hold? What security measures will it have?

    A 1&1 host wouldnt inspire me with confidence.
    Last edited by forgotmyname; 13-10-2016 at 11:21 PM.
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • Mobeer
    • By Mobeer 13th Oct 16, 11:42 PM
    • 1,552 Posts
    • 4,279 Thanks
    Mobeer
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 16, 11:42 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 16, 11:42 PM
    The concern for me would be if your potential customer won't allow you to install software, then will they allow their data to be moved outside their company? Certainly I can't imagine a bank allowing data to be stored into some Google Docs file.
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 17th Oct 16, 2:39 PM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    • #5
    • 17th Oct 16, 2:39 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Oct 16, 2:39 PM
    I think I'd have to use a secure server, not that I know anything about such things. Apparently medical records are kept on these. 1&1 hosting is certainly out of the question.

    The information contained would encompass corporate finance arrangements. Confidential, certainly, but not massively so except in certain cases where it would be price-sensitive.
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 3rd Nov 16, 3:26 PM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    • #6
    • 3rd Nov 16, 3:26 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Nov 16, 3:26 PM

    A 1&1 host wouldnt inspire me with confidence.
    Originally posted by forgotmyname
    Who would?

    I guess the solution is to use something cheap to demonstrate the product and when and if it gets off the ground to pay for something like this http://www.rackspace.co.uk/managed-hosting/dedicated-servers at £700/month.
    Last edited by Chomeur; 03-11-2016 at 3:34 PM.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 3rd Nov 16, 8:18 PM
    • 23,281 Posts
    • 9,175 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    • #7
    • 3rd Nov 16, 8:18 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Nov 16, 8:18 PM
    Check whois for the servers used by the company your aproaching, see who they use for their website.

    Can you give us a clue on what it does, what data it collects and what it does with that data?

    Is it something you sell them and they install it internally?
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 4th Nov 16, 10:41 AM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    • #8
    • 4th Nov 16, 10:41 AM
    • #8
    • 4th Nov 16, 10:41 AM
    Check whois for the servers used by the company your aproaching, see who they use for their website.

    Can you give us a clue on what it does, what data it collects and what it does with that data?

    Is it something you sell them and they install it internally?
    Originally posted by forgotmyname
    Actually someone I spoke to last night offering a related service said he used Microsoft Azure so I guess I'll go with that.

    My concept displays financial relationships in a diagrammatic form. As I see it I have a choice between doing it as a downloadable software application or an Internet service. In the former case there is likely to be resistance to downloading my code because of concerns that there may be malicious code in it. In the latter case there may be resistance because of concerns about uploading data to the "cloud". So it's hard to know which approach to prefer. Although Credit Suisse did advise me that they would favour the latter. Of course I could just give up, but I can't get a job, so what the heck.
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 4th Nov 16, 11:20 AM
    • 1,535 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    AndyPix
    • #9
    • 4th Nov 16, 11:20 AM
    • #9
    • 4th Nov 16, 11:20 AM
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but no financial institution of any kind is going to use your app/site


    You are not a large trusted company who answers to all kinds of regulatory bodies.


    You are going to program this yourself, and your not even sure how yet. I guarentee your code will be like swiss cheese to a hacker.


    Do you know about cross site scripting and how to prevent it ?
    Do you know about sql injection and how to sanitise user input ?
    Do you know about session cookies and how to stop them being hijacked ?
    Do you know how to hash your users credentials ? Or are you planning on storing them as plain text ?
    Do you even know how to interact with SQL using php or whatever you will use to code your site ? Do you even know what SQL is and why you will need it ?


    No IT manager in their right mind is going to authorise using your site. Fact


    You have no proven track record and no current clients who can vouch for you.


    Take your idea to a venture capitalist , and if its good you may get backing to form a team of professional programmers with security experience.


    You are living a pipe dream, and at best it will flop.
    At worst you will be dragged over hot coals for leaking all your users data


    Im sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is the reality of what you are suggesting
    Last edited by AndyPix; 04-11-2016 at 11:27 AM.
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 4th Nov 16, 11:50 AM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but no financial institution of any kind is going to use your app/site


    You are not a large trusted company who answers to all kinds of regulatory bodies.


    You are going to program this yourself, and your not even sure how yet. I guarentee your code will be like swiss cheese to a hacker.


    Do you know about cross site scripting and how to prevent it ?
    Do you know about sql injection and how to sanitise user input ?
    Do you know about session cookies and how to stop them being hijacked ?
    Do you know how to hash your users credentials ? Or are you planning on storing them as plain text ?
    Do you even know how to interact with SQL using php or whatever you will use to code your site ? Do you even know what SQL is and why you will need it ?


    No IT manager in their right mind is going to authorise using your site. Fact


    You have no proven track record and no current clients who can vouch for you.


    Take your idea to a venture capitalist , and if its good you may get backing to form a team of professional programmers with security experience.


    You are living a pipe dream, and at best it will flop.
    At worst you will be dragged over hot coals for leaking all your users data


    Im sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is the reality of what you are suggesting
    Originally posted by AndyPix
    Sure, there's a huge load of issues and I would never expect to do the whole thing by myself. I do approach venture capitalists from time to time. But a lot of them say they want to at least see a prototype. So if I'm going to produce that I should at least start out in the right direction. The guy I mentioned I spoke to last night spent two years developing his idea on his own before getting backing and then getting software engineers involved. So it can be done.
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 4th Nov 16, 12:04 PM
    • 1,535 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    AndyPix
    I suppose you could knock something together that mimicks the results that the final site would produce,
    and then once you have backing, get a team to code it propperly for you ..


    As you state you have already made this in VB i deduce that you can code at least,
    PHP should be quite simple to learn for you and is what i would suggest for the coding of the site
    You will need an SQL backend.


    The thing is going to work in a totally different way to a standalone program and you will have to redesign your engine totally from the ground up..


    Good luck and do please come back if you have any php/sql questions .. Ill be happy to help


    Andy


    edit: second thought, why not show the VC your working VB version, tell them that you need backing to convert this to a web service .. It may help if you get a letter of intent from a couple of companies who say they might use it if it was good ..
    Last edited by AndyPix; 04-11-2016 at 12:06 PM.
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 4th Nov 16, 3:55 PM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    I suppose you could knock something together that mimicks the results that the final site would produce,
    and then once you have backing, get a team to code it propperly for you ..


    As you state you have already made this in VB i deduce that you can code at least,
    PHP should be quite simple to learn for you and is what i would suggest for the coding of the site
    You will need an SQL backend.


    The thing is going to work in a totally different way to a standalone program and you will have to redesign your engine totally from the ground up..


    Good luck and do please come back if you have any php/sql questions .. Ill be happy to help


    Andy


    edit: second thought, why not show the VC your working VB version, tell them that you need backing to convert this to a web service .. It may help if you get a letter of intent from a couple of companies who say they might use it if it was good ..
    Originally posted by AndyPix
    Thanks AndyPix. The service doesn't rely heavily on saving user's data, it's mostly a visual thing. For that reason I'm thinking that it should mostly be written in html and javascript (which I do know) with php to save files. I'm not sure that it needs a database at all.

    I think that something that vcs can see running in their browsers would be useful as it would save me the need to do the leg work in showing them the VB version (and them from downloading anything). So I'm trying to upload some html and javascript, but even that doesn't seem straightforward.
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 4th Nov 16, 4:20 PM
    • 1,535 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    AndyPix
    If you wat the users to log in, then you will need some way to securely save their credentials.
    Hence database


    It should be very simple to upload your code,
    write it in notepad++ then upload it to the root of your webspace and call it index.html
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • paddyrg
    • By paddyrg 4th Nov 16, 5:06 PM
    • 12,618 Posts
    • 10,720 Thanks
    paddyrg
    If you have the full programme working in VB, it could be compiled down to a dll and installed on your IIS as an ISAPI filter. That's all decade plus - old technology though.

    The warnings about security need be borne, and fresh development is always more expensive than you think. It's safe to assume 5-figures.
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 4th Nov 16, 5:08 PM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    If you wat the users to log in, then you will need some way to securely save their credentials.
    Hence database


    It should be very simple to upload your code,
    write it in notepad++ then upload it to the root of your webspace and call it index.html
    Originally posted by AndyPix
    OK, sure there will be a database for that.

    It should be simple to upload my code but it's not. It is written in notepad++ but I've no idea how to upload it to my webspace. I transferred my domain to Wordpress.com because they claimed to offer hosting, but apparently that's not the same as web hosting so it is the wrong place, so I think now I need to transfer it somewhere else. The question is where. I thought Microsoft Azure would be a good choice as the guy I spoke to last night mentioned to me that he used it. I can't see how to transfer my domain there but I have managed to set up an url there. However it won't accept the credentials that I've entered to log in to the ftp page so I'm stuck there too.
    • RobTang
    • By RobTang 4th Nov 16, 5:35 PM
    • 1,023 Posts
    • 505 Thanks
    RobTang
    Actually someone I spoke to last night offering a related service said he used Microsoft Azure so I guess I'll go with that.

    My concept displays financial relationships in a diagrammatic form. As I see it I have a choice between doing it as a downloadable software application or an Internet service. In the former case there is likely to be resistance to downloading my code because of concerns that there may be malicious code in it. In the latter case there may be resistance because of concerns about uploading data to the "cloud". So it's hard to know which approach to prefer. Although Credit Suisse did advise me that they would favour the latter. Of course I could just give up, but I can't get a job, so what the heck.
    Originally posted by Chomeur

    I would actually say those 2 issues are relatively minor.


    The problem is the on boarding cost for any sort of (paid for) software into a large multi-national company is massive, adding up peoples time with internal processes and well a simple app like yours easily runs into £50,000-£100,000. All this has to be budgeted and that's where the real resistance is.


    I would strongly advice you to either find a technical partner or find a software engineer who is willing to sit down with you for a day (pay them if needed) and you can go through what you need to do to actually realise the project.


    At the very least sit down for a month and learn how server based software is built, run and maintained before you try anything else.


    Oh an always budget for lawyers.
    • paddyrg
    • By paddyrg 4th Nov 16, 8:18 PM
    • 12,618 Posts
    • 10,720 Thanks
    paddyrg
    WordPress is a blog/CMS engine sitting on top of a stack (usually LAMP - Linux, Apache, MySql, PHP). You could use EC2 to host a TurnkeyLinux LAMP Stack image and be running in an hour, with the advantage that you can turn the EC2 instance off to save money between demos, but in that case you could install the stack in a VM on your own computer. That would be faster, too. You could also look at Bitnami and Docker for other prebuilt LAMP stacks you could install locally, but I'd go with TurnkeyLinux first myself.
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 4th Nov 16, 10:06 PM
    • 1,535 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    AndyPix
    You just want the most basic hosting package from 1&1 or godaddy or such. (providing it offers php and sql)
    Remember, you are only programming proof of concept at the moment


    You could be online in a matter of minutes for around 20 squid
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 4th Nov 16, 11:36 PM
    • 6,473 Posts
    • 2,740 Thanks
    buglawton
    Couldn't you do a proof of concept as an iPad app? Many corporations use iPads for graphical / financial applications.
    Got a fur sink. An electric dog polisher. A gasoline powered turtleneck sweater. And, of course, I bought some dumb stuff, too. –Steve Martin
    • Chomeur
    • By Chomeur 10th Nov 16, 4:54 PM
    • 1,563 Posts
    • 336 Thanks
    Chomeur
    You just want the most basic hosting package from 1&1 or godaddy or such. (providing it offers php and sql)
    Remember, you are only programming proof of concept at the moment


    You could be online in a matter of minutes for around 20 squid
    Originally posted by AndyPix
    I quit 1&1 because they seemed so clueless when I phoned them up and always tried to get me to upgrade to a more expensive package which I'm sure I didn't need. Plus I think someone earlier in one of these threads said I should leave them.

    godaddy doesn't seem to have very good reviews. Maybe I'll try hostgator. They say they provide unlimited MySQL databases so presumably that satisfies the need for SQL (I've no idea what the difference is between My SQL and MS SQL). They say they have php in all their plans.
    Last edited by Chomeur; 10-11-2016 at 5:04 PM.
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