Parking ticket in residential space

Oxy333 · 4 July 2016 at 7:57PM

Dear All, I am new to this and would greatly appreciate any assistance or help that can be provided.

I lease an apartment and through my tenancy, I have a parking space in a carpark which is for tenants and is 'managed' by UKP. As far as I am aware, each tenant is entitled to a particular parking space and upon moving in we were given the permit for the space.

Several months ago I received tickets for not displaying thepermit. I believed that the space is mine through my tenancy and that as a result, it would be ridiculous for me to pay a ticket for this. I see now that I have probably taken the incorrect course of action.

I recently received a letter claiming to be a Letter before claim from solicitors on behalf of PC, stating that a claim will be made if payment is not made. Each ticket is now £150 and there are several, so as you can imagine, I am worried about the prospect of court.

I appreciate I may have left some relevant details out, for which I apologise. I would appreciate any help that you can provide or direction you can point me in.

I understand that I have made a lot of naive and silly mistakes so I apologise for that for making this case harder, but with several tickets of £150 each, I can't really afford to pay this. Nor do I believe I should have to in principle

Thanks in advance

Coupon-mad · 4 July 2016 at 8:12PM

Welcome. No-one is going to call you naive or silly - and we can help.

You say:

I recently received a letter claiming to be a Letter before claim from SCS on behalf of UKPC, stating that a claim will be made if payment is not made. Each ticket is now £160 and there are several, so as you can imagine, I am worried about the prospect of court.

I responded to this, after some research on threads on this and other sites and stated that I deny the debt since I am entitled to the space through my lease. I am not sure whether I should have replied to this and, if it matters, I replied by email to UKPC directly.

So, you had a LBC and you responded, good. Are you saying you have not heard anything else? There may be a court claim that follows shortly but that's defendable and even if you lost you would very likely end up paying LESS than £160 a pop.

Oh, and DO NOT reply to any private message from any poster 'offering to help' because they would have a vested interest and you can tell by the lack of post count (under 1000 posts and they are not a regular here).

Guys_Dad · 4 July 2016 at 8:17PM

There is no way anyone here can accurately predict the way this would go if it went to court.

We have many results where the court has sided with the PPC, although we are heartened by a very recent thread on here where a lady from Morecambe won her case http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5488129

I believe that some people are trying to get a transcript of the judgement.

The case is not a precedent, although it could be persuasive.

Much depends upon your lease, the signs, the managing agents' input, but, in truth, it will depend upon which judge you get, and that is a lottery.

There are literally hundreds of threads on this forum and I suggest you do a search to see previous advice given to members in order to get a good flavour of the initial steps you need to take.

Oxy333 · 4 July 2016 at 8:21PM

Thanks very much for your reply.

I broadly understand that if he is the 'owner' of the space then UKPC cannot issue a ticket on this property without his permission? The trouble is just that I do not know the exact legal standing of the parking space and I fear it may take some time for me to get to the bottom of, and require the cooperation of the landlord which I am not 100% confident of.

Coupon-mad · 4 July 2016 at 8:29PM

You are a tenant then so you can't supply it; not sure why you said it because those rights are the rights of the landlord and you are not that person. Not saying you have no right to peaceful enjoyment because you do, but you do not have a leasehold interest, you have a tenancy agreement, surely?

I would expect a court claim because UKPC do pick on people with several PCNs - so start looking at defences and remember what I said, even if you lose it is unlikely to be £160 a pop. SO DO NOT PAY THEM, IT WOULD BE DAFT. And you could win if you research this better than so far. start looking now, before the claim arrives, so you know what others have done in your shoes and how cases have been won or lost (and what they paid if they lost).

Read defences people have shown on the forum. Do not take it to private message with anyone.

Oxy333 · 4 July 2016 at 8:40PM

The tenancy agreement does not mention the car parking space yet my understanding is that every apartment gets a parking space. It then depends on whether I am entitled to the parking space through my tenancy? Which I am, but it is not expressly written in the terms.

Coupon-mad · 4 July 2016 at 8:47PM

Yes, this is pretty standard and as a tenant you 'have' a space allocated but no clear set in stone rights (as such) and no ownership of it, no leasehold interest like a flat owner might have on that bay. Really you are focussing on the wrong thing.

Start looking at the signage wording and gets some pictures of how unreadable the terms are (unlit, high on a wall or a pole, not near a light, etc).

And please use this time to read other defences because you are likely to have to defend this at a hearing in the end - in order to either win, or at least not be bothered any more for £160 a time. That's an inflated sum and arguably not all recoverable, but you will know that when you read other threads.

Any queries you have are best on the back burner while you do some reading of the dozens and dozens of other UKPC cases on here to familiarise yourself with what happens when and what a defence about 'unclear/prohibitive signs' (among other defence points) might look like.

Oxy333 · 4 July 2016 at 9:00PM

Thank you very much for your help. I will focus on reading defences, I have had a look through some briefly but now I will go into details.

You say that I am focusing on the wrong thing but IF the landlord has rights to the space and in turn he has given them to me through the lease, is this not sufficient to form part of an argument that no contract exists between myself and UKPC as the space is in effect mine? Of course, I expect I would need some form of agreement or statement to this effect.

Does the fact that each resident gets a given space not mean that through parking in my own space, albeit without a permit on display, mean that no inconvenience or loss was caused to anyone? Additionally as it is residents only parking, there is not a commercial justification for the 'penalty'?

I apologise if I'm asking too many questions or ones which could be easily answered elsewhere. I have looked through a lot of other threads and will continue to do so, in more detail now. I am very appreciative of any help.

Coupon-mad · 4 July 2016 at 9:11PM

You say that I am focusing on the wrong thing but IF the landlord has rights to the space and in turn he has given them to me through the lease, is this not sufficient to form part of an argument that no contract exists between myself and UKPC as the space is in effect mine? Of course, I expect I would need some form of agreement or statement to this effect.

Yes, with evidence, that woud be a defence point worth arguing. But it didn't sound hopeful when you said:

managed through a 'letting agent' who has not allowed me to contact the landlord directly (and he hasn't been particularly helpful previously with other issues).

You could put in writing a polite request for information as you appear to have been scammed and you could ask the Letting Agent why they didn't warn you (if they didn't) of the well-known notorious photo-altering firm on site issuing £100 a pop 'penalties'.

You could ask if they can liaise with the managing agent of the site to get these cancelled (no chance, but ask anyway, these letting agencies need to take this threat more seriously).

no inconvenience or loss

Stop trying to argue that! We know, we know... Read the Beavis decision in its infinite wisdom:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html

Then read it again and realise you weren't dreaming, the Judges REALLY did think it was OK for a private firm to profit from a three figure 'charge' with no relationship to any loss/ownership of the land (in that case where Mr Beavis was delayed by a machine fault in Staples, who wanted the PCN cancelled!).

Oxy333 · 4 July 2016 at 9:28PM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Stop trying to argue that! We know, we know... Read the Beavis decision in its infinite wisdom:

LINK

Then read it again and realise you weren't dreaming, the Judges REALLY did think it was OK for a private firm to profit from a three figure 'charge' with no relationship to any loss/ownership of the land (in that case where Mr Beavis was delayed by a machine fault in Staples, who wanted the PCN cancelled!).

I have read parts of this case previously and will do so in much more detail - is the new test then whether:

"The test is whether the sum or remedy stipulated as a consequence of a breach of
contract is exorbitant or unconscionable when regard is had to the innocent party’s interest in the performance of the contract. A clause fixing a level of damages payable on breach will be a penalty if there is an extravagant disproportion between the stipulated sum and the highest level of damages that could possibly arise from the breach "

Unless I am looking at this overly simplistically, could the basis of my defence not be that a £160 fine for not displaying my permit, when I am in fact the only holder of that permit and thus entitled to the space, is extremely disproportionate?

I understand the case will be evidence based, but common sense cannot be completely ignored... surely

IMO the Beavis case appears very different from a residential permit case, but I will look into this further along with defences.

beamerguy · 4 July 2016 at 11:58PM

You said "UKPC have asked for a copy of the lease agreement"

If they have a genuine contract with the owner, they would know that already, More so, has the owner agreed that UKPC can issue tickets to legitimate residents ?

You need a copy of that if it exists.

UKPC are the low life that gives the private parking industry a bad name

Parking ticket in residential space

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