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  • FIRST POST
    • Minnie87
    • By Minnie87 26th Aug 15, 2:28 PM
    • 15Posts
    • 51Thanks
    Minnie87
    Help! Ukpc have 'photographic evidence' which isn't real
    • #1
    • 26th Aug 15, 2:28 PM
    Help! Ukpc have 'photographic evidence' which isn't real 26th Aug 15 at 2:28 PM
    Hey I need some help.
    I parked in a free car park with a maximum stay of 2 hours on 18/7/15. I arrived at the car park at 08:20 and arrived back at my car at 10:00 to find a parking fine. I still had 20 minutes before I overstayed. My friend also parked in the car park and arrived 5 minutes before me and didn't have a ticket.
    I opened the ticket and it stated that my car was first seen at 07:15 and seen again at 09:27. I knew this was not true because i was still in bed with my alarm set for 07:15 and my car was outside my home so with this in mind I immediately appealed because I knew there would be no evidence of my car being in the car park at this time.
    I appealed to ukpc who rejected stating that all photographic evidence is date and time sampled and this cannot be changed by the warden so again knowing that such evidence does not exist I appealed to popla.
    Yesterday I received an email from popla with the evidence sent by ukpc and without a worry about it I opened it to find several photos of my car at 09:27 and a few mins after and a photo with a time sample of 07:15
    What the *#%^*+%????
    So they say the warden cannot change the time sample yet here is a picture which proves they can!!
    I haven't had a decision from popla yet but with that evidence it really isn't looking good and the charge is now £100.
    I know from looking at some posts that I should have took advice on here first but I thought it would be straight forward as I knew there wouldn't be any evidence.
    Help what do I do??
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Aug 15, 2:39 PM
    • 13,648 Posts
    • 16,754 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 26th Aug 15, 2:39 PM
    • #2
    • 26th Aug 15, 2:39 PM
    just look at POPLA REBUTTALS on here and send in rebuttals for whatever you can , based on what they have sent you in the evidence pack

    they always had the option to send in the evidence pack, you have the option to rebut it, thats how it works, so if you can rebut their points (any of them) - do so

    popla rules in favour of the motorist about 50% to 60% of the time, so it was never a slam dunk
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • ManxRed
    • By ManxRed 26th Aug 15, 2:56 PM
    • 3,394 Posts
    • 4,485 Thanks
    ManxRed
    • #3
    • 26th Aug 15, 2:56 PM
    • #3
    • 26th Aug 15, 2:56 PM
    Find the theme music to the Twilight Zone, play it and then click on this link.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5312196

    You need to rebut their evidence. Do you have any evidence of your own that your car was elsewhere at these times? A witness statement from a friend, relative, or colleague?

    In the other thread, the poster has CCTV footage to prove the times are wrong on his UKPC photos. Is there any other business nearby to the car park you were in that might be able to help out with this?

    Where was the car park? Might be worth leaving a post in that other thread asking the OP where his car park was. Maybe this happened in the same place and we have a rogue warden who has just enough intelligence to work out how to change the times on his Kodak Instamatic.

    Regardless of all this, what else did you appeal on? Just the times/photos, or did you question the nature and size of the charge? Or UKPC's legal rights to offer parking on land they do not actually own or occupy?
    Last edited by ManxRed; 26-08-2015 at 3:01 PM.
    Je Suis Cecil.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 26th Aug 15, 3:06 PM
    • 3,493 Posts
    • 4,900 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #4
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:06 PM
    • #4
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:06 PM
    in who's car park was this?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 26th Aug 15, 3:28 PM
    • 3,182 Posts
    • 4,564 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #5
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:28 PM
    • #5
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:28 PM
    2nd thread is as many days where UKPC seem to be doctoring/forging photos: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5312196
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 26th Aug 15, 3:34 PM
    • 6,862 Posts
    • 6,834 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #6
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:34 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:34 PM
    Photographic "evidence" means next to nothing in this context, so don't worry about it!
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Aug 15, 3:35 PM
    • 2,264 Posts
    • 2,757 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #7
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:35 PM
    • #7
    • 26th Aug 15, 3:35 PM
    Is it possible to ask for digital copies of the images sent ? ie on a card/usb stick / cd

    if so then please let me know

    Ralph
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 26th Aug 15, 4:35 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 4,178 Thanks
    Herzlos
    • #8
    • 26th Aug 15, 4:35 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Aug 15, 4:35 PM
    I appealed to ukpc who rejected stating that all photographic evidence is date and time sampled and this cannot be changed by the warden so again knowing that such evidence does not exist I appealed to popla.
    Originally posted by Minnie87
    I don't know of a single digital camera on the market where you can't change the time setting. These guys aren't using any specialist equipment, it's just a £20 camera from Argos (or the like). My money is on them using 2 cameras set an hour apart in order to do this reliably.

    The EXIF data might tell you something about it (might even be different model numbers) but they can doctor that just as easily. It'll be impossible for them to prove the dates are accurate. If it ever got to court you could ask them to bring in the camera and show the judge how to change the time...


    I'd go and file a report with the police and get a crime number; you suspect fraud and I can't think of any way to "accidentally" get those readings.
    • Grimble
    • By Grimble 26th Aug 15, 6:01 PM
    • 370 Posts
    • 442 Thanks
    Grimble
    • #9
    • 26th Aug 15, 6:01 PM
    • #9
    • 26th Aug 15, 6:01 PM
    On my camera I can have more than one time zone set, click of a button it is one or two hours earlier.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 26th Aug 15, 6:09 PM
    • 6,277 Posts
    • 5,101 Thanks
    The Deep
    Look at it this way, if they took you to court, (they would be daft, but they hassled Mr Davey), a barrister), all you need to do is look the Judge in the eyes and say, "Sir/Madam, I did not come here to lie to you, I was not in that car park at that time",


    Davey v UKPC here


    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 26th Aug 15, 7:27 PM
    • 3,493 Posts
    • 4,900 Thanks
    Half_way
    The reason behind the Whos car park question, is that a strong complaint should be made to the landowner
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Aug 15, 7:31 PM
    • 2,264 Posts
    • 2,757 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    now blogged......


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/uk-parking-control-apparently.html

    Ralph
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 26th Aug 15, 7:42 PM
    • 5,514 Posts
    • 6,907 Thanks
    Marktheshark
    was the sun out ?
    if it was very easy to prove the time they were taken
    • Minnie87
    • By Minnie87 26th Aug 15, 8:17 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 51 Thanks
    Minnie87
    Thank you everyone for your replies and advice!!

    I guess the only evidence I have is a txt I sent to the friend I met in the car park stating 08:15 to be the meeting time (yes I was late lol) then my friend being a witness to me arriving after her. My friend had been shopping at morisons accross the road before she met me and kept receipts if that helps. I went past at least 1 road camera on my way to the car park and there are some cameras in the area but I'm guessing I can't just ask for a copy of footage. I myself don't have any reciepts tho.
    I didn't appeal on anything else just the times.
    Ralph-y who do I ask for digital copies? Would it be ukpc themselves?
    Would the police entertain this?
    How do I find out who owns the land?
    It was sunny with cloud that day and looking at the shadow it doesn't seem to have moved a lot in over 2 hours but they were taken at slightly different angles so not 100% sure but they look like same shadow. Also I was looking at the clouds and there is a cloud that looks very similar but 2 hours apart and it doesn't help with the Angels of their photo or the trees. Is there anyway I can upload photos here for you all to have a look? They are off my phone tho and won't be able to cover number plate
    Thank you
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Aug 15, 8:44 PM
    • 2,264 Posts
    • 2,757 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    "Ralph-y who do I ask for digital copies? Would it be ukpc themselves?"

    I asked the question because I am not sure if you can demand / insist ....

    but yes ask them......

    just thought .......

    did the pic arrive by email?

    Ralph
    • enfield freddy
    • By enfield freddy 26th Aug 15, 8:47 PM
    • 5,920 Posts
    • 3,909 Thanks
    enfield freddy
    copy photos to a desktop , use the black marker in Microsoft paint , and upload using photobucket , or tinipics


    however as mentioned , the parking prankster has blogged this , and shown how easy it is to alter photos


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/uk-parking-control-apparently.html
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Aug 15, 10:26 PM
    • 2,264 Posts
    • 2,757 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    yes .... but .......

    we are talking about ex clamper knuckle dusting .........

    I did hope that this would stay under the radar ......

    "As far as detecting an amateur job, there is generally a file creation date in meta data of the file system itself that could be examined and compared to the EXIF metadata, but if they are good at it, they will have altered both and there is some possibility of the file system values getting lost depending on how the file is transferred, so it may not even be reliable."

    Ralph
    • Parking-Prankster
    • By Parking-Prankster 26th Aug 15, 10:38 PM
    • 305 Posts
    • 1,137 Thanks
    Parking-Prankster
    Thank you everyone for your replies and advice!!

    I guess the only evidence I have is a txt I sent to the friend I met in the car park stating 08:15 to be the meeting time (yes I was late lol) then my friend being a witness to me arriving after her. My friend had been shopping at morisons accross the road before she met me and kept receipts if that helps. I went past at least 1 road camera on my way to the car park and there are some cameras in the area but I'm guessing I can't just ask for a copy of footage. I myself don't have any reciepts tho.
    I didn't appeal on anything else just the times.
    Ralph-y who do I ask for digital copies? Would it be ukpc themselves?
    Would the police entertain this?
    How do I find out who owns the land?
    It was sunny with cloud that day and looking at the shadow it doesn't seem to have moved a lot in over 2 hours but they were taken at slightly different angles so not 100% sure but they look like same shadow. Also I was looking at the clouds and there is a cloud that looks very similar but 2 hours apart and it doesn't help with the Angels of their photo or the trees. Is there anyway I can upload photos here for you all to have a look? They are off my phone tho and won't be able to cover number plate
    Thank you
    Originally posted by Minnie87

    Email them to me and I will add them to the blog and redact the numberplate and link them here


    prankster@parking-prankster.com
    Hi, we’ve approved your signature. It's awesome. Please email the forum team if you want more praise - MSE ForumTeam
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Aug 15, 10:40 PM
    • 2,264 Posts
    • 2,757 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    please please do ^^^^^^^^^^

    he knows what he is about !

    Ralph
    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 27th Aug 15, 1:07 AM
    • 8,102 Posts
    • 30,198 Thanks
    ampersand
    op - do get a police crime ref. no. as herzlos advises, #8.

    This can be quoted, as and when, in any popla appeal, evidence pack or hearing, all to the good.
    Last edited by ampersand; 27-08-2015 at 1:42 AM.
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