Direct Payments and holiday pay

nannytone_2 · 22 March 2015 at 3:34PM

[ive looked through all the 'bump' that i received from the council and can't find the answer, so wondering if anyone here knows.
My PA receives 28 days of paid holiday every year. But 2 or 3 times a year, I go away for a week to visit family and friends. she puts me on the train and picks me up on my return.

it works out that this year ( april 14 - april 15) she will have had 51 days paid holiday of you include the time i have spent away.
am i allowed to ask her to take some of her holiday when i am away or is she allowed to choose all the holidays she wants to take?

i only ask because some factories have 'shutdowns' during the summer, at which time employees HAVE to take 2 weeks of their annual leave entitlement/B]

cattermole · 22 March 2015 at 6:16PM

Its an awkward one yes you could ask her to take holiday. However its about what has been existing practice.

By far the best way round it is to make those hours up at a different time. Paying 51 days is a bit excessive in terms of holiday pay.

nannytone_2 · 22 March 2015 at 6:55PM

we don't actually have a contract of employment.
i think we should sit down and sort one out.
I'm quite happy for her to have holidays when she chooses, but she takes a week off at every occasion ... christmas, easter etc... and always has the fridays before the bank holidays ... and then goes away for 3 weeks. ( 2 holidays)
then she gets another 3 weeks when I'm not here!
during the summer it seems i spend more time without her than with her .
she knew i was going to my mums for the last week of may and today sent a text saying she's ALREADY booked ( as in this morning) a holiday tabroad flying out on 2nd june. so she'll pick me up from the station and fly out the next day!
have to get my son in law to take me shopping ... he'll be thrilled

bll78 · 22 March 2015 at 8:31PM

Sorting out a contract seems a good idea.

You could dictate her holidays as you say factories do, but this may make the job less attractive and you could lose your carer who I know on other posts you have described as excellent. Also you'd have less flexibility as you'd have to state when the dates are (factories have the same weeks every year)

If you are going to let her have flexible holidays, it's not her fault they there isn't any work (i.e you are away) at other times. Having said that 51 days a year holiday is excessive. I doubt the LA would be happy if they found out.

One solution could be to sit down and discuss the issue, give her the choice of having set holidays or making the time up throughout the year. Another option could be given what you've said about June could be to leave the money and a list of shopping and have her meet you with it all or if you trust her have her drop it off at home and pack it away earlier in the day. That way she's making up some hours whilst you are away and it solves the shopping issue. Maybe there are some other tasks which could be done whilst you are away too? Cleaning, collecting prescriptions for your return, sorting out post? I'm not entirely sure what she helps with but there may be other examples that may work for you?

cattermole · 22 March 2015 at 9:05PM

You know I think you have been far too soft as an employer.

She shouldn't book or assume she can take holidays when ever. Or tell you by text that's what she has done. That is the same for any employee/employer relationship. Any employer is perfectly within their rights to refuse a particular holiday request if it does not fit with their needs/business.

Because the bottom line is she could have gone away the same week as you not doubled up her holiday by booking the week after.

Whether there is a written contract of employment or not its still a contract. Did your support service not give you a standard one when you first had DP?

If you have enhanced Fish policy they can send you a suitable contract of employment which you can use. Yes I do think you should have a formal written contract, say the Council have picked up on it so you have to put things on a proper footing. SomeCouncils do check on contracts of employment or it can be in the DP agreement.

I would say that when you are away you will expect the hours to be worked at a mutually agreeable time to make up the hours and make it clear holidays have to be agreed before she can take them. Again use LA as a reason if its easier to deal with. And/or other good suggestions above from bll78 which are other ways forward.

To be honest I would also look for a back up carer to cover holidays as it never pays to put all your eggs in one basket. X

cattermole · 22 March 2015 at 9:35PM

I think you would be being perfectly reasonable to have 2 out of your 3 weeks away a year as shutdown and the other week made up in hours. It could be put in the contract.

nannytone_2 · 24 March 2015 at 12:53PM

yjr problem with a back up PA is that i don't have the money because i am paying her while i am on holiday
so if i sort that out i can get someone else to cover 2 weeks when she is away!

don't get the wrong idea though ... its nothing intentional on her part. she's about the nicest, most accommodating person i know.
they booked the holiday at the last minute and picked her date so she was available to pick me up from the station when i got home from my parents.

she isn't deliberately 'upping' her holidays... it just hasn't occurd to her in the same way as it hadn't occurred to me!

nannytone_2 · 24 March 2015 at 12:58PM

bll78 ...
she already drops me off and picks me up at the station and shops for the basics so i have milk and bread for when i get back!
she is a gem really.

im struggling more and more over the past year, and i am at the point where i really can't manage a week without some help. thats why i started thinking about it. it shocked me to realise just how much holiday she was actually getting!

missbiggles1 · 24 March 2015 at 1:08PM

nannytone wrote: »

bll78 ...
she already drops me off and picks me up at the station and shops for the basics so i have milk and bread for when i get back!
she is a gem really.

im struggling more and more over the past year, and i am at the point where i really can't manage a week without some help. thats why i started thinking about it. it shocked me to realise just how much holiday she was actually getting!

So she picks up a few basics for you while you're away and while you're paying her normal salary for the whole week and you think she's doing you a favour? You need to stop thinking of her as a friend and remind yourself that this is a business arrangement and one that is paid for out of public funds.

cattermole · 24 March 2015 at 4:39PM

Its a difficult line to tread between friend and professional carer I do understand that. However whether she does it on purpose or not you need to think of it on a more formal footing especially if you are now needing the help more when she isn't there and is on holiday.

You should have enough money to cover holiday pay even with paying her when you are not using her for 3 weeks, its because of the hourly rate you are paying, too much not much you can do about that now except do shut down weeks.. Because if you didn't go away those 3 weeks you would still not have enough to pay 28 days to someone else when she is away.

I can dig up a contract of employment for you if you want me to? Tailor it to what you need and then you can sit her down and explain that legally there has to be a contract of emplyment, and 2 of the 3 weeks away will have to be shut down and the other week hours will have to be made up. It still leaves her 3 and a half weeks flexible holiday. If she knows well in advance when those 3 weeks are you are going away and 2 she has to take as holiday then it is perfectly fair.

Just say as I suggested the Council are being more thorough and you have no choice etc etc.

Also without a contract of employment if anything did go wrong then you would be up the creak without a paddle. Trust me you never can tell what even the most trusted carer might do. Fish insurance would not cover it either without a contract.

cattermole · 24 March 2015 at 5:03PM

This webside is very useful Nanny and you can download a contract of employment and other documents.

http://www.skillsforcare.org.uk/Employing-your-own-care-and-support/Support-for-individual-employers/Employing-personal-assistants-toolkit.aspx

The Union page below explains re shut downs basically as long as you give twice the notice of the length of shutdown for holiday you are perfectly entitled to do this and it states the following under holiday pay.

http://www.gmb-westmids.org.uk/id35.html

"If the employer wants you to take holiday at a given time e.g. a seasonal shut-down, they must give you notice of at least twice the length of the holiday. But there is no right for the worker to give counter-notice to take that holiday at a different time."

So nothing to stop you doing it straight away and putting it in the contract

Direct Payments and holiday pay

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