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  • FIRST POST
    danny27
    Parking Eye PCN - Closed Retail Park
    • #1
    • 3rd Nov 13, 1:55 PM
    Parking Eye PCN - Closed Retail Park 3rd Nov 13 at 1:55 PM
    Hi, could do with some advice please on what to do regarding a Parking Eye PCN i have received

    I took some friends to town the a week or so ago and i parked in a small car park for 2 shops and left my car i there this was late at night and had a drink with my friends, i returned to my car and left, then to my surprise a few days later received a parking charge notice for £90 or £54 if i paid within 14 days from parking eye stating the maximum time for parking was 1 hour and i had breached the terms and conditions of the car park. to be honest i didn't see the sign or know there was a 1 hour limit but i am surprised by this as the retail (not sure how it can be a retail park with only 2 shops on it) park wasn't even open, my question how should i approach this next? after looking around online i seem to have come across many different responses to dealing with this companies so do i -

    - Ignore them (although a lot of people say not to anymore)

    - Pay the reduced amount before the 14 days are up

    - Appeal (and how would i go about do this?)

    - Contact one of the stores on the park and explain to them they are trying to charge people when the shop isn't even open and tell them i shop there a fair bit in the past and i would be taking my custom elsewhere and reporting the retail park to watchdog etc.

    what i don't get is how they can try to charge me when they aren't even providing a service as the shops were shut. also if it went to court would i have a case?


    Thanks for any help
    Last edited by danny27; 03-11-2013 at 2:09 PM. Reason: take time out
Page 1
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 3rd Nov 13, 2:00 PM
    • 7,919 Posts
    • 8,408 Thanks
    Stroma
    • #2
    • 3rd Nov 13, 2:00 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Nov 13, 2:00 PM
    I presume this is England or Wales ?

    You appeal, say that you didn't see any signs, their pre estimate of loss is nowhere near what they are claiming, the shops were closed so there is no loss. And so on, don't admit to be being the driver though ! Just appeal as the registered keeper, keep it in the third person.

    When they reject that come back here for help going to popla, google it
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
  • danny27
    • #3
    • 3rd Nov 13, 2:08 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Nov 13, 2:08 PM
    England, is there anywhere i can get a template appeals letter i can use?

    thanks for advice
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 3rd Nov 13, 2:22 PM
    • 14,799 Posts
    • 13,457 Thanks
    bod1467
    • #4
    • 3rd Nov 13, 2:22 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Nov 13, 2:22 PM
    Just read any of the MANY threads here. Most include template letters, for both initial appeal and POPLA.

    As said, write everything in terms of the registered keeper. Make no reference to the driver. (So, don't say "I didn't see any signs", say "The signage at this site is inadequate and confusing", or similar).
  • danny27
    • #5
    • 4th Nov 13, 4:24 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Nov 13, 4:24 PM
    I presume this is England or Wales ?

    You appeal, say that you didn't see any signs, their pre estimate of loss is nowhere near what they are claiming, the shops were closed so there is no loss. And so on, don't admit to be being the driver though ! Just appeal as the registered keeper, keep it in the third person.

    When they reject that come back here for help going to popla, google it
    Originally posted by Stroma
    would something along the lines of the appeal letter on parking cowboys be ok? (i'd post link but won't let me)
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 4th Nov 13, 4:46 PM
    • 9,865 Posts
    • 8,830 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #6
    • 4th Nov 13, 4:46 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Nov 13, 4:46 PM
    Too complicated. Search here for "POPLA appeal" in a thread title and you will find some. http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4717353&page=4 post #70 is a good place to start.
  • danny27
    • #7
    • 4th Nov 13, 4:56 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Nov 13, 4:56 PM
    So confused :S as everywhere says to appeal in different ways, Guys Dad in my circumstances on what grounds would you appeal?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Nov 13, 6:56 PM
    • 45,069 Posts
    • 57,685 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 4th Nov 13, 6:56 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Nov 13, 6:56 PM
    We all appeal on similar grounds. How to win at POPLA in simple linked examples and information:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62180281&posted=1

    Shorter and longer examples but all with the same winning points which suit 99% of cases.

    In addition, for your amusement and confidence-building so you can see you WILL WIN, I presume you've noticed the 'POPLA decisions' sticky thread at the top of the forum? Not confusing to read that at all as long as you start at the end (most recent decisions). Work your way backwards on that thread; ignore any chat and skim-read each ParkingEye POPLA decision. Spot all the recent cases with Parking Eye which shows them losing on the same appeal point again and again and again! We do win 100% of the time right now.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 04-11-2013 at 6:58 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 4th Nov 13, 7:36 PM
    • 9,865 Posts
    • 8,830 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #9
    • 4th Nov 13, 7:36 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Nov 13, 7:36 PM
    So confused :S as everywhere says to appeal in different ways, Guys Dad in my circumstances on what grounds would you appeal?
    Originally posted by danny27
    Danny, let's be hypothetical for a second.

    Suppose you had been caught doing 35 mph in a 30 mph limit. You get to the Magistrates court and they say "Guilty. Lock him up for 2 years".

    You would get a brief to appeal the sentence, not the verdict.

    So that's the case here. You are appealing the "sentence" of £100 that does not fit the "crime",

    So, you major on the "No genuine pre-estimate of loss" point.

    Also, suppose the PPC didn't have the right to charge you 1p as they didn't have a valid contract with the landowner? So you demand that they produce the contract in question that actually specifies that they are allowed to charge you.

    Going back to the "crime" of speeding. Suppose that there were no 30mph signs up and it wasn't obvious that you were in built up area. Would that be fair? So you challenge the signage of the park in question. Obviously the signage was inadequate or you would have seen it.

    Basically, that's enough for you to be getting on with and hopefully understand the appeals you have been pointed to. Now do a draft of your appeal and let's see it.
  • danny27
    Thank you guys so much for advice, after reading around for a hour or 2 last night as help me a lot in how to tackle this.

    right so here is what I've come up with to send to parking eye if you'd be so kind to read and point out anything i should change/reword

    Name:

    PCN Reference No:

    Vehicle Registration No:

    As the registered keeper of the vehicle above, I'm writing to appeal the parking charge notice issued to me on the grounds stated below -

    1. Signage -The signage at the entrance of the car park where the PCN was issued isn't lit, thus making it difficult for drivers to see the signage upon entering the car park and read the signs whilst entering at night.

    2. Genuine pre-estimate of loss - The parking charge amount of £XX.XX doesn't represent a genuine loss to ParkingEye LTD. as the sole purpose of the car park is to provide 'free' parking to the retail park, and as there was no stores open at this time there can be no loss.

    I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and as there are no ‘exceptional circumstances’ your comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I deal with your Parking Charge Notice – Notice to Keeper.

    If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

    If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16


    Thanks again
    Last edited by danny27; 05-11-2013 at 6:22 PM.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 5th Nov 13, 6:12 PM
    • 9,865 Posts
    • 8,830 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Very good appeal, very professional and well researched.

    Looking forward to reading your POPLA appeal.
    Last edited by Guys Dad; 05-11-2013 at 6:14 PM.
  • danny27
    Thanks again for quick reply, just a quick question would i need to put my address on the appeal and hows best to end it just print name and sign above?
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 5th Nov 13, 6:52 PM
    • 9,865 Posts
    • 8,830 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    No reason not to put address - they know it already. Print name, don't sign.
  • danny27
    I'm gonna send my appeal tomorrow to parking eye how it best to send it online or through post? also as if i send it through post is it best to send recorded? it goes to a PO Box so would this even be an option as no one will be at the PO Box to sign for it?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Nov 13, 1:47 PM
    • 12,159 Posts
    • 18,557 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Do both - on line and by snail mail with a free proof of posting from your PO. No need to send 'Signed For'.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
  • danny27
    Sent appeal off just waiting game now.

    I visited the car park and on the signs in the car park it states -

    Parking Eye Ltd is solely engaged to provide a traffic space maximization scheme. We are not responsible for the car park surface, other motor vehicles, damage or loss to or from vehicles or users safety. The parking regulations for this car park apply all year round 24 hours a day, all year round, irrespective of the site opening hours. Parking is at the absolute discretion of the site. By Parking within the car park motorists agree to comply with the car park regulations. Should a motorist fail to comply with he car park, the motorist accepts they are liable to pay a parking charge and that their name and address will be requested from the DVLA.

    my question is is that sufficient enough to comply with section 30.1 of the BPA code that states 'Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) camera technology may be used for parking control and enforcement. Operators using ANPR must do so in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Signs at the entrance must tell drivers that you are using this technology. Your signs must make it clear what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.'

    the only mention of ANPR on the sign is the camera logo that says 'car park monitored by ANPR systems'

    also is there anteing else which might be appeal able on the sign?

    Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Nov 13, 10:18 PM
    • 12,159 Posts
    • 18,557 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Sent appeal off just waiting game now.

    I visited the car park and on the signs in the car park it states -

    Parking Eye Ltd is solely engaged to provide a traffic space maximization scheme. We are not responsible for the car park surface, other motor vehicles, damage or loss to or from vehicles or users safety. The parking regulations for this car park apply all year round 24 hours a day, all year round, irrespective of the site opening hours. Parking is at the absolute discretion of the site. By Parking within the car park motorists agree to comply with the car park regulations. Should a motorist fail to comply with he car park, the motorist accepts they are liable to pay a parking charge and that their name and address will be requested from the DVLA.

    my question is is that sufficient enough to comply with section 30.1 of the BPA code that states 'Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) camera technology may be used for parking control and enforcement. Operators using ANPR must do so in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Signs at the entrance must tell drivers that you are using this technology. Your signs must make it clear what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.'

    the only mention of ANPR on the sign is the camera logo that says 'car park monitored by ANPR systems'

    also is there anteing else which might be appeal able on the sign?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by danny27
    That's the usual 'guff' in the tiniest print at the foot of PE signage. The bit about ANPR is probably not compliant with BPA CoP, but it's a pretty weak point in the context of robust appeals - there's plenty more 'wrong', so I wouldn't get too hung up on splitting hairs over this particular issue. But if you want to be anal about it, check it against the CoP - section 18 and Annex B (that's all we have to go on), here:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/609_AOS_CoP_June_2013_update.pdf
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
  • danny27
    any idea on how long it usually takes parking eye to respond to appeals, i sent by post and online about 10 days ago and had no reply or acknowledgement.
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 18th Nov 13, 3:42 PM
    • 14,799 Posts
    • 13,457 Thanks
    bod1467
    I think they need to acknowledge the appeal within 14 days and respond to it within 35 days.
    • 4consumerrights
    • By 4consumerrights 18th Nov 13, 4:40 PM
    • 1,960 Posts
    • 2,856 Thanks
    4consumerrights
    Parking Eye Ltd is solely engaged to provide a traffic space maximization scheme. We are not responsible for the car park surface, other motor vehicles, damage or loss to or from vehicles or users safety. The parking regulations for this car park apply all year round 24 hours a day, all year round, irrespective of the site opening hours. Parking is at the absolute discretion of the site. By Parking within the car park motorists agree to comply with the car park regulations. Should a motorist fail to comply with he car park, the motorist accepts they are liable to pay a parking charge and that their name and address will be requested from the DVLA.
    If it was dark when the driver entered the car park and there was no illumination on the signs - then No contract can be formed between driver and Parking Eye.

    Go back to the car park in the dark and try and take some photographs of the entrance. Parking Eye's car park at Fistral beach and Tower Road (if my memory is correct also entraps motorists with badly lit entrances)


    Signs at the entrance must tell drivers that you are using this technology. Your signs must make it clear what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.'
    - Yep you're right there should be adequate signage to inform drivers when sites have CCTV/ANPR coverage.

    The ICO guidance document for business is here if you are interested.

    http://www.ico.org.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/topic_guides/cctv

    ****************

    In any case as stated above by Guys Dad and Umkomaas POPLA wins on GPEOL . - Interesting to see how Parking Eye can justify this in this case by retail outlet/principal suffered no financial loss due to shops being closed. Parking Eye are supposed to manage car parks for their clients to encourage and quick turnover of vehicles and free up car parking spaces according to their website:

    http://www.parkingeye.co.uk/ParkingChargeFAQ
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