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  • FIRST POST
    spike1103
    iPhone from Orange
    • #1
    • 15th Jan 12, 11:15 PM
    iPhone from Orange 15th Jan 12 at 11:15 PM
    I hope someone can advise and apologies, because I've posted this in Consumer Rights as well....

    I have been with Orange for too many years to remember - since I got my first mobile phone anyway.

    Two years ago, I entered a contract with Orange for an iPhone 3GS - this was a two year contract, and I had no problems until August last year. In August, my iPhone started rebooting itself, either during a call, when I was emailing, surfing, texting, whatever. Even when the phone was left on the side doing nothing at all - black screen to show it was sleeping and so on - suddenly the Apple logo would appear the the phone was rebooting again.

    I visited the local Apple shop, who told me that the phone was not repairable and out of warranty, which I knew - just hoped they could fix it, but apparently not. I contacted my bank, Barclays, with whom I have an insurance policy on the phone, but they told me that the phone would take at least 3 weeks to replace and I would have to pay a large excess. As I'd just started doing some self-employed work, my mobile was my only means of keeping in touch with the clients I was doing urgent work for, so I contacted Orange.

    Orange offered to get me an emergency replacement phone in 24 hours, but it would cost me £179.00, which would be added to my monthly bill. I decided to carry this cost as I could offset it against my earnings from the two projects I was working on.

    Phone duly arrived the next day, which was fine.

    In November, I took out a new contract with Orange on an iPhone 4S, but kept the 3GS as a 'work' phone on a PAYG sim. Again, all was fine until Christmas when the replacement 3GS started rebooting as the old one had. Again, I took it into the Apple shop, who told me it was a refurbished phone (which I didn't know) and out of warranty. It was also not fixable.

    As I'd only had the phone for less than 4 months, and bought it from Orange not knowing it was a refurbished item, I contacted Orange to ask them to replace this obviously faulty handset. They refused.

    I checked the Sale of Goods Act, and my understanding is that if an organisation is acting as a business and part of that business is to sell second hand goods (which effectively, and unknown to me, this phone was) they are obliged to sell the item with the customer having a reasonable expectation that it would work for a reasonable amount of time. The manager I spoke to at Orange was completely unreasonable, shouting at me down the phone, telling me I should have known the handset was refurbished, and that if I had a problem with it, it wasn't Orange's problem but mine and I should take it up with Apple who supplied Orange with the refurbed phone.

    I stated that I had paid Orange for the phone, and not Apple, and therefore, my arrangement was with Orange and not Apple, but this completely obnoxious guy wasn't having any of it. I quoted the Sale of Goods Act to him, and he said that I was misinterpreting it, but his interpretation was different to mine and that was Orange's position, which is that the warranty on the refurbed phone started when I took out the contract - 21 months before I even got the phone - and that they were not obliged in any way to give a warranty on a second-hand phone, even if I didn't know it was second-hand.

    I am now £179 out of pocket, with a duff phone, and pretty hacked off. Needless to say, when my current contract is up, I will be moving from Orange, who obviously have no idea of how to treat loyal customers.

    Anyone out there got any ammunition I can take to Orange to get them to take responsibility for selling goods not fit for purpose, and supplying me with a phone that actually works for more than a few months?

    As always, any help gratefully received.
Page 1
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 15th Jan 12, 11:37 PM
    • 50,949 Posts
    • 21,494 Thanks
    grumbler
    • #2
    • 15th Jan 12, 11:37 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Jan 12, 11:37 PM
    Orange offered to get me an emergency replacement phone in 24 hours, but it would cost me £179.00, which would be added to my monthly bill. I decided to carry this cost as I could offset it against my earnings from the two projects I was working on.
    Originally posted by spike1103
    It is absolutely unclear what kind of deal it was and what you have paid for.
    I checked the Sale of Goods Act, and my understanding is that if an organisation is acting as a business and part of that business is to sell second hand goods (which effectively, and unknown to me, this phone was) they are obliged to sell the item with the customer having a reasonable expectation that it would work for a reasonable amount of time.
    This is correct if they did sell you the phone. The warranty for refurbished phone is typically a half of the one for new phones. "Reasonable" is a very vague term, but I think everyone (except possibly Orange) would agree that it has to be at least half of Apple's normal warranty, i.e. 6 months.
    The manager I spoke to at Orange was completely unreasonable, shouting at me down the phone, telling me I should have known the handset was refurbished, and that if I had a problem with it, it wasn't Orange's problem but mine and I should take it up with Apple who supplied Orange with the refurbed phone.
    Arrogance and loutishness are typical for Orange. Your deal was with Orange, not with Apple.

    I stated that I had paid Orange for the phone, and not Apple, and therefore, my arrangement was with Orange and not Apple, but this completely obnoxious guy wasn't having any of it. I quoted the Sale of Goods Act to him, and he said that I was misinterpreting it, but his interpretation was different to mine and that was Orange's position, which is that the warranty on the refurbed phone started when I took out the contract - 21 months before I even got the phone - and that they were not obliged in any way to give a warranty on a second-hand phone, even if I didn't know it was second-hand.
    Normally, if the phone is replaced (not sold) the warranty is 3(?) months or the remainder of the old warranty whichever is bigger. However, as far as I understand it was not the case as Orange charged you for the replacement.
    Last edited by grumbler; 16-01-2012 at 7:41 AM.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
  • jayme1
    • #3
    • 16th Jan 12, 1:17 AM
    • #3
    • 16th Jan 12, 1:17 AM
    that £179 you paid is (off the top of my head) is the apple out of warranty replacement cost, of which apple will replace a faulty handset with a refurbished one for a one off fee, the refurb comes with a 90 day warranty, so it sounds like orange basically did that for you as the middle man.

    have you tried restoring the iphone as new in itunes? an iphone (or any smartphone) is like a computer you have to shut down and restart it every once in a while and sometimes you just gotta reinstall the OS (ie restore)
  • spike1103
    • #4
    • 16th Jan 12, 4:53 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Jan 12, 4:53 PM
    Thank you for the replies. I have tried restoring the iPhone, but it didn't make any difference. Next step is to go to Citizens Advice because I can't afford to write off £179 at the moment.
    • burnsguitarman
    • By burnsguitarman 16th Jan 12, 10:12 PM
    • 683 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    burnsguitarman
    • #5
    • 16th Jan 12, 10:12 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Jan 12, 10:12 PM
    Apple charge £119 for a fixed price repair/ replacement with a 90 day warranty, so it seems Orange are being a bit naughty!
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 16th Jan 12, 10:28 PM
    • 50,949 Posts
    • 21,494 Thanks
    grumbler
    • #6
    • 16th Jan 12, 10:28 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Jan 12, 10:28 PM
    Are they supposed to work for free? For supermarkets even 100% profit margin is not uncommon.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • burnsguitarman
    • By burnsguitarman 17th Jan 12, 10:36 AM
    • 683 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    burnsguitarman
    • #7
    • 17th Jan 12, 10:36 AM
    • #7
    • 17th Jan 12, 10:36 AM
    The point I'm making is that th OP could have taken the phone direct to an Apple Store and paid £119 pound for the same replacement.
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 17th Jan 12, 10:42 AM
    • 50,949 Posts
    • 21,494 Thanks
    grumbler
    • #8
    • 17th Jan 12, 10:42 AM
    • #8
    • 17th Jan 12, 10:42 AM
    I agree. The OP seems to be a little disorganised. They "can't afford to write off £179", but have easily paid Orange about £60 for this 'service' and had been paying for two insurances for one handset (although one policy possibly was a part of some package).
    Last edited by grumbler; 17-01-2012 at 1:22 PM.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
  • jayme1
    • #9
    • 17th Jan 12, 1:14 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Jan 12, 1:14 PM
    just looked it up and it's £139 for an iPhone out of warranty replacement, so yeah you got ripped having orange replace it.
    • burnsguitarman
    • By burnsguitarman 17th Jan 12, 2:05 PM
    • 683 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    burnsguitarman
    Sorry Jayme1. The price is £119, as shown on an extract from my receipt in December.

    Dosen't help the OP though!

    DUPLICATE￿RECEIPT
    SVC,IPHONE4,32GB,BLK,RPLCMNT-EMEA
    Part￿Number:￿B661-5659
    No￿Returns APPLECARE￿SUPPORT￿www.apple.com/uk/support/
    Unit￿Price VAT% Qty
    £￿0.00 20.0% 1
    VAT￿Ex.￿Price VAT Total
    £￿0.00 £￿0.00 £￿0.00
    IPHONE,FLAT￿RATE￿REPAIR,RETAIL
    Part￿Number:￿S4277Z/A
    No￿Returns APPLECARE￿SUPPORT￿www.apple.com/uk/support/
    Unit￿Price
    £￿99.17
    VAT￿Ex.￿Price
    £￿99.17
    Total VAT￿Ex.￿Price £￿99.17


    VAT% Qty
    20.0% 1
    VAT Total
    £￿19.83 £￿119.00
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