£70 Parking Fine in non P&D Car Park

bargainaholic · 23 September 2006 at 7:47PM

I finally persuaded OH to accompany me on a shopping trip today. We are staying with my in-laws for the weekend, so MIL offered to entertain DS1 & 2 whilst we went to shop for DS1's birthday next weekend.

We drove into Norwich, parked in the TK Maxx/Toys R Us car park, and walked into the city, thinking we'd leave the TK Maxx/Toys R Us shopping until last. We looked for P&D machines and couldn't see any, so assumed it was free as so many retail parks are. We didn't notice any signs, so had a nice afternoon around the city.

We returned to the retail park and did some shopping in TK Maxx, went to put our shopping in the car and noticed an envelope on the windscreen. We were stunned to see a parking charge notice issued by Euro Car Parks. This states that our "vehicle was parked longer than the maximum period allowed" and we are "therefore required to pay the parking charge of £70.00 within 21 days" :eek:

We then went looking for signs

The parking bays all faced towards the stores - we found one sign - above head height facing the down one of the aisles - and another facing the direction which you'd see from a parking bay, but obscured by the leaves of a tree (high-up again) :mad:

There was nothing on entry to the car park in the way of warnings, and no information in any of the shop windows about parking charges.

We're feeling very hard done by - yes in hindsight we were naive and should have looked harder, but £70 is complete overkill, so I feel inclined to appeal rather than pay.

The ticket has a psuedo-legal statement that says "If this parking charge notice is not paid, the registered keepers details may be requested from the DVLA".

Can anyone give me any advise on Euro Car Parks, the legality of this ticket, the likelihood of them following this up, or the chances of a successful appeal please?

:beer:

dap_3 · 23 September 2006 at 8:02PM

Its not council... Very little they can do, just ignore it... (The only possible way is if they can prove a contract was formed with the *driver*, and sue you in court... Its not going to happen).

http://www.pepipoo.com/ check out parking ticket forums...

mishkanorman · 23 September 2006 at 8:59PM

Ive noticed that they have a little man going round taking down reg plates, and checking them on a regular basis. Im not suggesting that you claim this in any way

but surely there is nothing to say you didnt have a browse in the parade of shops, drive into the city centre and park for a couple of hours and then return to make your purchase from tk maxx ????? They only note down that your car was there at blah time and again at blah time, nothing to say you were there in between.

mishka

bargainaholic · 23 September 2006 at 10:28PM

mishkanorman wrote:

Ive noticed that they have a little man going round taking down reg plates, and checking them on a regular basis. Im not suggesting that you claim this in any way but surely there is nothing to say you didnt have a browse in the parade of shops, drive into the city centre and park for a couple of hours and then return to make your purchase from tk maxx ????? They only note down that your car was there at blah time and again at blah time, nothing to say you were there in between.

mishka

The ticket says from 11:28 to 14:29, so we were 3 hours in what we now know to be a 90 minute max stay car park. When we actually found a sign, we took a picture of it, and it says no return within 2 hours. Technically we could say we'd left and returned, but I won't resort to lying. Also, there is a CCTV camera in the car park, so I don't think we'd get away with it anyway.

deaththecat · 23 September 2006 at 10:32PM

Hi,
Have a look on https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk , they have a big section on parking tickets and I think these type are unenforcable.

looby75 · 23 September 2006 at 10:35PM

if you haven't already go back and take photos of the signs from realistic angles. The one that's high up, take a photo from your eye line and the one that's covered by a tree again take it from the angle that shows it being covered by leaves. Then tell co claiming the fine you have photographic evidence the warning/penalty signs were no clearly displayed.

MarkyMarkD · 23 September 2006 at 10:49PM

They absolutely ARE enforceable, as long as the terms of the parking restrictions were made clear before you parked.

It doesn't sound like they've met that condition.

There should either be clear signs at the entrance of the car park, or prominent signs that you can see from where you parked.

dap_3 · 23 September 2006 at 11:36PM

And how are they enforcable?

This is a private company, giving a ticket for not complying with their conditions (i.e. a legal contract) for parking on their private land.

Therefore, they could only in theory end up doing *THE DRIVER* on the basis of that they agreed to that contract (To pay £70 if they failed to follow)

The big thing here is that the DVLA will give them the *REGISTERED KEEPER* details; how can they prove who the driver is?

Council fines are a different matter completely... Private parking fines -> Ignore them.

See here
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

If you wish to get advice from people with more experience than me

glen5213 · 24 September 2006 at 2:33PM

i thought to make it legal they had to have the LANDOWNERS perrmission and the signs are supposed to be displayed in a promenent place

MarkyMarkD · 24 September 2006 at 4:04PM

dap wrote:

And how are they enforcable?

This is a private company, giving a ticket for not complying with their conditions (i.e. a legal contract) for parking on their private land.

Therefore, they could only in theory end up doing *THE DRIVER* on the basis of that they agreed to that contract (To pay £70 if they failed to follow)

The big thing here is that the DVLA will give them the *REGISTERED KEEPER* details; how can they prove who the driver is?

Council fines are a different matter completely... Private parking fines -> Ignore them.

See here
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

If you wish to get advice from people with more experience than me

Nice forum, but nothing very obviously dealing with this point IMHO. If you have a more specific link maybe you could post it?

I agree with everything you say, except your conclusion. The parking charge IS enforceable against the driver. As you say, they can only get the registered keeper details from the DVLA. But in a large proportion (probably a majority) of cases, the two are one and the same.

So, if you WERE the driver and ARE the registered keeper, and they seek recovery of the charge, and take you to court, are you going to:

(1) PERJURE yourself in court by claiming that you weren't the driver and therefore you have no liability? or
(2) ADMIT that you were the driver and therefore are liable to pay up?

I don't agree with your conclusion that just because someone else MIGHT have been driving the vehicle, the charge is unenforceable.

As I am sure that you are aware, civil matters are dealt with on a "balance of probabilities" rather than a "beyond reasonable doubt" basis.

The balance of probabilities, if one of these cases goes to court and the defendant fails to appear, is that they are liable and I expect the court would deal with it accordingly.

advent1122 · 24 September 2006 at 4:10PM

Just pay up.
You know you will in the end.

£70 Parking Fine in non P&D Car Park

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