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Loading bay rules and fines? Advice please
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# 1
Penny Pound
Old 26-05-2009, 2:58 PM
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Default Loading bay rules and fines? Advice please

Hi everyone, my first posting.
I am appealing against two PCN's issued by my council (using CCTV). They state that I parked in a loading bay during restricted hours without loading. If I go through with you what I've written, could anyone please advise on whether I need to say anything else, or differently?
1. I was unloading, taking heavy bags of books into the charity shop next to the bay. The manager is happy to write me a supporting letter. I donate books there once or twice a week.
2. The street sign only says 'Loading Bay'. There are no time restrictions on it. Shouldn't there be, if I'm apparently contravening them?
3. The photo image is actually of my car halfway off the bay as I'm leaving it, not of it parked there. If they're offering the image as evidence against me, it should be of my car actually parked there, surely? (There's a lampost in between the bay and the CCTV camera, preventing it being able to take a proper photo).

I'd be very grateful for any comments/advice.

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# 2
Neil B
Old 26-05-2009, 4:56 PM
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PCN images are often inadequate, ignore them. They will use vid or further stills if they fight.

Who is this? Much is misunderstood about loading exemptions and mostly by --- Councils!
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# 3
Penny Pound
Old 27-05-2009, 10:56 PM
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Hi Neil, when you ask 'Who is this', do you mean which council?

It's useful to know that they can just come back with other images or recordings; thanks for that info, Neil.
By the way, since I posted here yesterday, the manager of the charity bookshop has written me a letter of support to accompany my appeal, confirming to the council that I did deliver heavy bags of books to the shop regularly. I'm glad he's done this, as I'll include it as evidence that I was using the bay legitamately.
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# 4
Neil B
Old 28-05-2009, 1:26 AM
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yes, which Council.
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# 5
roddydogs
Old 28-05-2009, 7:47 AM
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Did you load/unload CONTINIOUSLY for the time you were parked...........observation time allowed is only 3 minuits..........so many people think they can load for 1 minuit, then stay parked for longer......you cant.
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# 6
Coblcris
Old 28-05-2009, 9:39 AM
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Loading continuously does NOT mean being at the vehicle continuously despite what many councils say. See the Jane Packer Flowers case on PATAS. "Loading is what loading is" and that involves transfer into the premises, paperwork signed, goods checked by recipient etc. Going off for a coffee or a snack halfway through breaks the continuity but not being at the vehicle for over three (or five or ten etc) minutes in and of its own right means absolutely nothing.
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# 7
roddydogs
Old 28-05-2009, 10:29 AM
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Yes it does because the attendent/Warden has only to observe for 3 mins befor issuing a ticket------if you cant be seen at the vehicle within 3 mins, dont park-simple.
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# 8
Neil B
Old 28-05-2009, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddydogs View Post
Yes it does because the attendent/Warden has only to observe for 3 mins befor issuing a ticket------if you cant be seen at the vehicle within 3 mins, dont park-simple.
Rubbish.

You are just picking numbers out of the air. You can't back any of that nonsense with legislation or similar.
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# 9
roddydogs
Old 28-05-2009, 11:13 AM
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Please yourself if you want to pay parking tickets
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# 10
Neil B
Old 28-05-2009, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddydogs View Post
Please yourself if you want to pay parking tickets
I fail to see how that leads to me paying anything?

It's hardly worth it but just to clarify.

You can't back this up Roddy - because it's nonsense. Even the most draconian Council wouldn't agree with you. It makes no sense.

On the basis of what you say the shops would be devoid of goods and the Country grind to a halt! LOL.

There are generally NO time limits on loading as long as that is what you are doing. You seem to fail to understand what constitutes loading. Even where some time limits are written into Traffic Orders for certain locations you are proven wrong since those are normally 20, 30 or 40 minutes. 20 being obvious to recognise as a Red Route restriction - how do you explain that one away Roddy?

Where exactly did you get your interpretation of rules anyway?? - serious friendly question.

so far, you apparently know better than me, Coblcris, the DfT, numerous Councils and the legally experienced and qualified patas and TPT Adjudicators. I think not somehow. Coblcris referred you to a relevant case. Was the outcome wrong?
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# 11
oldone
Old 28-05-2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddydogs View Post
Yes it does because the attendent/Warden has only to observe for 3 mins befor issuing a ticket------if you cant be seen at the vehicle within 3 mins, dont park-simple.
Before I use the word rubbish, perhaps you could give us chapter and verse of the regulations that support your statement........... or do you work for a PPC
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# 12
Coblcris
Old 28-05-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddydogs View Post
Yes it does because the attendent/Warden has only to observe for 3 mins befor issuing a ticket------if you cant be seen at the vehicle within 3 mins, dont park-simple.
Utter tripe.

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals....ts/LOADADJ.pdf
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# 13
roddydogs
Old 29-05-2009, 7:37 AM
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Your missing the point.........example 20 mins loading DOSENT mean you can park for 20 mins it means that the MAXIMUM loading time is 20 mins.........you HAVE to be continously loading for a maximum 20 mins.............of course if you dont actually see an attendent youll usually get away with it, but that dosent mean its "legal". also, of course anyone can appeal any ticket, and many do succeed, this doent mean that any attendent/warden will then stop issuing tickets in the pescribed manor
i shold know- i issued enough tickets.

Last edited by roddydogs; 29-05-2009 at 7:42 AM.
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# 14
Neil B
Old 29-05-2009, 9:51 AM
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Continuously does not mean continuously at the vehicle. In your lates offered scenario all of our goods an belongings would be left at kerbside!!

No one has suggested that a 20 minute loading allowance means you can park for any of that time?
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# 15
roddydogs
Old 29-05-2009, 10:05 AM
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As i said if your not seen within 3 mins, you can get a ticket.......it dosent mean that eveytime someone has been away from the vehicle for more than 3 mins they get a ticket, it dosent mean that EVERY attendent will only give 3 mins--------im just telling you the criteria, if you dont believe thats up to you
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# 16
roddydogs
Old 29-05-2009, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddydogs View Post
As i said if your not seen within 3 mins, you can get a ticket.......it dosent mean that eveytime someone has been away from the vehicle for more than 3 mins they get a ticket, it dosent mean that EVERY attendent will only give 3 mins--------im just telling you the criteria, if you dont believe thats up to you
of course if your loading you wont be continiously at the vehicle, as how would you get the goods into the shop?
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# 17
Neil B
Old 29-05-2009, 10:41 AM
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I'm not disputing that was the criteria you were given Roddy but it isn't in any Regs and you have failed to quote any repeatedly when asked. In any case a claimed obs time of only 3 mins where loading is permitted would be ridiculed by any Adjudicator!
-
I fully understand that it is reasonable for a PCN to be issued after a reasonable time, IMV 7/8 minutes. if no loading could be seen to be taking place.

The problem we are frequently experiencing is

a) for hand served PCNs Councils refuse to cancel even when people explain. the Councils lose nearly all or probably all of these or back off at the very last minute.

b) For CCTV PCNs with full evidence of loading in front of them Councils again refuse to cancel. Sometimes it is clear they do not even check back on the recording they already have. hence a failure to consider and illegal!

-----------
I'm guessing you may have been a Police employed Warden? If so, I think you'll find times have changed considerably and revenue generation is blatant. If that was your old job, effective and fair enforcement, I think you'll find it is defunct sadly.
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# 18
roddydogs
Old 30-05-2009, 6:20 AM
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Your still missing the point.........most people would want to avoid a ticket......they dont want the "Hassle" of trying to get a council to cancel the ticket, theyd rather not have the ticket in the first place. If you follow my criteria, you wont get one.
I totally agree that loading bay regs are "Vague"......as is the nonsence of allowing Diasbled Drivers to park in them, but thats not what im saying.
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# 19
Neil B
Old 30-05-2009, 9:39 AM
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I DO get the point but I am saying it is impractical. Also it should not be necessary. We cannot allow Councils to behave unreasonably by quickfiring off PCNs as they do. The commercial effect should be obvious. there is a particular Company whose name appears in the PATAS hearing lists several times almost daily. Given their business they would obviously be unloading at numerous locations. The fact that they spend more time in hearings than they do conducting their business (sic) is worrying.

For the case in hand then your advice should also not be necessary. The Council can clearly already see, via CCTV, that loading was taking place. The behaviour of the operator and Council subsequently is outrageous.
Rather than have the need to follow your advice and be constantly worried about the risk of an unfair PCN I'd rather we returned to sensible fair enforcement and parking management.

Incidentally, your advice is directly contrary to the official strong Guidance of DfT which i have printed here numerous times. I do not agree that the rules are vague at all. They are clear - loading is permitted, full stop. Councils just choose to ride roughshod over the DfT on the matter regarding the need for training and particular observations.
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# 20
Coblcris
Old 30-05-2009, 1:48 PM
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If the video has been reviewed by the council and shows compliant loading but they still pursue the PCN after seeing clear evidence to the contrary (evidence created with type approved equipment don't forget !) then to my mind there is a clear case for charges to be brought against the council. of course you can't charge a council, only individuals so it sounds like the Parking Manager would be the defendant.
In cases such as this it may good practice to put review of the video in the appeal to establish the evidence trail. Of they don't respond to that appeal point they should lose anyway and if they do and it is a case such as this then you have them in your cross-hairs.

The cameras are like tracer bullets, they work both ways as a source of information.
.
What is the opinion of the enlightened ?

Last edited by Coblcris; 30-05-2009 at 1:50 PM.
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