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Is Electric Central Heating now a viable option?
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# 1
mogedwards
Old 31-08-2008, 5:19 PM
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Default Is Electric Central Heating now a viable option?

Each time there is a rise in energy prices, gas seems to rise far more than electricity.

I need to replace my gas boiler, which is about 20 years old and has never had a problem, even though (or maybe because) I have never had it serviced. It seems that modern gas boilers, whilst more efficient are less reliable.

I am wondering if an electric boiler would now be an option. I have checked other threads, but they were mainly contributed to before the recent massive increases in gas compared to electric.
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# 2
paceinternet
Old 31-08-2008, 5:59 PM
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Most unlikely if your gas is around 3-6 p/kwh and electricity 10-13 p/kwh.
You can try to reduce this difference by taking into account the higher cost of the new gas boiler, the annual service/maintenance of the gas boiler and maybe the shorter life expectancy of the gas boiler. If you use it during an E7 period, you could also factor a portion of lower priced electricity in and get closer.
But the answer is still likely to be No at the moment.

The only way to get closer (and maybe even make a small saving) is if you considered an electrically driven air to water heat pump. Unfortunately, most of them cost more to purchase than a gas boiler at the moment, so mains gas is still the right answer if you have it.

Of course, energy price differentials may change again, and equipment costs get closer.

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# 3
Cardew
Old 31-08-2008, 7:45 PM
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Agree with the post above.

Even taking into the instalation costs and servicing requirements, IMO heating on daytime electricity is still more expensive unless you have a very small property and are out much of the time.

However if you do go for electricty, why a boiler? Simple 30 oil filled radiators or convector heaters will give exactly the same amount of heat for your s as a boiler/radiator combination and cost a fraction of the instalation costs.
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# 4
amtrakuk
Old 01-09-2008, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardew View Post
Agree with the post above.

Even taking into the instalation costs and servicing requirements, IMO heating on daytime electricity is still more expensive unless you have a very small property and are out much of the time.

However if you do go for electricty, why a boiler? Simple 30 oil filled radiators or convector heaters will give exactly the same amount of heat for your s as a boiler/radiator combination and cost a fraction of the instalation costs.
Totally agree with you there again Cardew.

I have gone though the same decisions as the originator of this thread. As might have read, I had a quote for a replacement boiler and got anything from 1.5 - 4k (BG). I have got a 2 up 2 down end terrace house. I thought there had to be a cheaper way as my gas bill was 50 a month (18 months ago), my electric was 40 a month and though I could heat/cook/hot water for less than that gas over a year and I find I can with still living in the same comfort.

Both b&Q and British gas said it is worth spending at least 1k+ on a boiler which should last about 10 years then you've got the cost and commissioning of the boiler which has to be done by a corgi engineer. Working depreciation in to the equation at 10 a month and the breakdown cover 15 a month, it came clear to me when doing the sums 50+10+15 = 75 a month all in all.

My electric DD is about 80 month (standard rate) which may sound alot but I have no gas and associated costs. Im heating with 30 convector heaters I got from Argos. OK I had to pay out about 500 in electrical and plumbing work but I got the installation done by a qualified electrician and plumber. The advantage is the heaters and tankless water heater will required zero servicing and should last about 15 years as the only thing with the heaters that could go wrong is the thermostat fail, just means 30 for a replacement heater. The redring powerstream has been heating my hot water so far with no problems and no sign of failure.

The best way I found to work out which type of electric heater is best for you is to buy one and use it to heat your room as you see fit (The reason for this as some prefer oil filled radiators, some prefer convection. Also see how many units it uses) Do the sums (no of units used x pence). To heat my bedrooms, kitchen and front room it costs me about 2 extra a day - this doesn't include water and cooking.

I have chosen convector heaters as it reacts alot quicker than oil filled radiators. Thermostats are importance so it only clicks on and off until the room is at the desired temperature.
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# 5
Magentasue
Old 01-09-2008, 7:13 PM
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I can imagine this being viable in small households but there must be a point where the outlay for CH is worth it? Or maybe not?

Another thing is whether you plan to stay in a house. In our last two houses, there has been electric or no heating and we've knocked the house price down to cover the cost of installing gas CH. In a seller's market, it might not matter, of course. When we were younger, we would have found the thought of having central heating daunting. When our children were babies, we wouldn't have been able to afford it.

So, if you think you might be selling in the near future, to a young family market, it might be worth giving a new boiler a second thought.
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# 6
Cardew
Old 01-09-2008, 8:19 PM
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This was a Daily Telegraph article published 3 years ago that I posted on MSE(bear in mind that the prices are well out of date now - but the principle still applies)

On the level: what gas really costs
(Filed: 12/10/2005)
Ask Jeff
There's a lot to be said for wiring-in electric panel heaters or night-storage heaters, writes Jeff Howell

A month ago I wrote about switching energy suppliers, and have since been asked by several readers for my views on the most economical energy source. I get a steady trickle of letters with this query anyway, but the recent rises in gas and electricity prices, press stories about diminishing stocks of natural gas, and the increase in the crude oil price following hurricane Katrina have all led to a greater concern about energy supplies and prices.

Most readers in urban areas will have natural gas piped into their homes, and might assume that this is the cheapest fuel. But over the past few years I have viewed a lot of new housing developments (many as a judge for The Daily Telegraph/What House? awards), and I have been struck by the fact that most new houses and flats these days tend to be fitted with electric panel heaters rather than gas-fired central-heating systems. On the one hand, this could be seen as a cynical ploy by the developers to cut costs. After all, wiring is cheaper than pipework, and there are no boilers, pumps or radiators to break down or leak, requiring remedial call-backs. On the other, it might be a blessing in disguise for the new owners. Sure, they are paying more per unit for electricity than for gas, but their annual maintenance costs will be practically zero, whereas gas-fired central heating incurs considerable maintenance and depreciation costs. So let's have a closer look at the subject.


Fuel prices vary across the country, and different suppliers have different charging practices (some add standing charges, and some operate a sliding tariff, with the first hundred or so units being more expensive). But roughly speaking, a standard "unit" of electric power, a kilowatt-hour (kWh) - which will heat a one-bar electric fire for an hour - costs about 7p. Off-peak electricity ("Economy 7") costs about 3.5p per kWh. Natural gas piped into the house ("town gas") costs about 2p per kWh, but gas boilers might be only 75 to 80 per cent efficient, giving a truer cost of nearer 2.5p. Heating oil and LPG (liquefied petroleum gas, or "Calor Gas"), using similar boilers, currently provide heat at a rate equivalent to 4.5p and 4p per kWh respectively.

On the basis of fuel costs alone, gas, oil and LPG are cheaper than standard-rate electricity. But this does not take into account the costs of buying and installing boilers and fuel tanks, nor the annual maintenance costs, nor the fact that boilers have a finite life. The trade price for a new gas boiler is about 600, but you'll be lucky to find a gas fitter who will supply and install one for much less than 1,500. Big companies such as British Gas routinely charge 3,000 or more.

Old gas boilers had few moving parts and could be expected to last for 30 or 40 years, but the new ones are packed full of electronics and might last 10 years or less. So let's budget 200 per year in boiler depreciation. Then there's an annual servicing cost of at least 50 - and some readers are still paying 180 or more to British Gas for annual breakdown cover, even though this does not include a proper strip-down service. So readers who think that gas is the cheapest fuel should remember to factor in 250 to 400 per year as an extra "standing charge" when they do their calculations. (Add to that the annual landlord's gas safety certificate - 50 - and the Government's proposal that in future every home might also have to have an annual gas safety inspection.)

Electric heating, by comparison, is practically maintenance-free, and has a conversion rate of energy into heat of 100 per cent. For readers with an existing gas, oil or LPG heating system, the most economical option is probably to keep it going. But for those considering a change of fuel, or starting from scratch, there's a lot to be said for wiring-in electric panel heaters or night-storage heaters, or even simply plugging oil-filled electric radiators into the existing wall sockets.
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# 7
paceinternet
Old 01-09-2008, 9:18 PM
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It must depend on how big your house is and how comfortable you want to be for how many hours.

Example, there is some basic guidance for room heating which says you need 40 w/sqm for a very well insulated and draft free house rising to 80 if it is less efficient.
A house of say 150 sqm on 2 floors would need a minimum of 6 kw (rising to 12 kw for our less efficient example) per hour. Say you have the heating on 5 days a week for 8 hours, and weekends 2 days for 15 hours. Total 70 hours a week. Say the heating season is roughly 6 months, 180 days. You are now up to 12600 kw hrs. At 10p that is £1,260, at 12p that is £1512 per 6 months, which may be all you need for the year.

OK, this may be topside for most people, but certainly not everyone. But then it shows you that if that was all done by mains gas at 5 or 6p per kwh or even a heat pump at average 300% efficiency so 4p per kwh, you do have a lot of money available for servicing and capital depreciation.

Some properties may be larger and some need to be heated for more hours a year, and many others will need less. But most important is to work through something like this and create an estimate for your situation.

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# 8
Cardew
Old 01-09-2008, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by paceinternet View Post
Some properties may be larger and some need to be heated for more hours a year, and many others will need less. But most important is to work through something like this and create an estimate your situation.
Amen!

Electrical heating, of any kind - let alone heat pump or storage heating - is certainly worth considering for a small modern flat occupied by a working couple.

Modern storage heating(for all its disadvantages) brings larger properties into the equation and are reasonably priced to install.

However if you do go for electrical heating on a daytime tariff, then it is important to remember that you will get exactly the same heat from cheap panel/oil/convector heaters as expensive electric boilers with radiators or some of these electrical systems that cost a fortune and are marketed in the most disgraceful manner.
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# 9
tomstickland
Old 01-09-2008, 10:18 PM
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I live in a smallish 1 bed flat, well insulated and I'm out at work during the day. E7 storage heating has proved to be a very cost effective method of heating. Zero maintenance costs and around 40 pcm total electricity bill.
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# 10
mech
Old 02-09-2008, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by paceinternet View Post
It must depend on how big your house is and how comfortable you want to be for how many hours.

Example, there is some basic guidance for room heating which says you need 40 w/sqm for a very well insulated and draft free house rising to 80 if it is less efficient.
A house of say 150 sqm on 2 floors would need a minimum of 6 kw (rising to 12 kw for our less efficient example) per hour. Say you have the heating on 5 days a week for 8 hours, and weekends 2 days for 15 hours. Total 70 hours a week. Say the heating season is roughly 6 months, 180 days. You are now up to 12600 kw hrs. At 10p that is 1,260, at 12p that is 1512 per 6 months, which may be all you need for the year.

OK, this may be topside for most people, but certainly not everyone. But then it shows you that if that was all done by mains gas at 5 or 6p per kwh or even a heat pump at average 300% efficiency so 4p per kwh, you do have a lot of money available for servicing and capital depreciation.

Some properties may be larger and some need to be heated for more hours a year, and many others will need less. But most important is to work through something like this and create an estimate your situation.
The consumption figure you arrive at is probably not unreasonable for an average house, though an average UK dwelling is more like 90 sqm rather than 150 sqm.

The number of hours the heating is on are largely irrelevant IMO. Most UK houses will retain enough heat during the night or working day that it doesn't make a huge amount of difference. Any guidelines on heating capacity per square metre are likely to be a rule of thumb to ensure good heating response, not to accurately predict consumption

Though it appears to have worked reasonably well in this specific example, I don't like figures based on floor area. Heat loss isn't related to floor area, but to the outside surface area of the building. The ratio of floor area to surface area is not linear, even for a square floor plan, let alone taking into account building shape, party walls, or number of floors in a property.
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# 11
amtrakuk
Old 03-09-2008, 3:56 PM
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After my Boiler went U/S I did the maths on how much a month I was paying for serving, gas and depreciation, the sums (based on last usage a year ago) worked out at 40 (gas) + 18 (breakdown cover) + £10 (depreciation) adding up to £68 a month for hot water, cooking and heating.

It is worth pointing out that a £600 boiler will last you UPTO 10 years, from posts on here and the web most of these cheaper boilers start failing after about 6 or 7 years. From the Web, Gas Engineers etc, you are better off paying over £1k for a boiler if you want 10 years out of it. As the saying goes, buy cheep, buy twice.

Now I have gone all electric my Direct debit for standard rate electric is £80 a month in total and building up a nice credit for when the heaters go on in winter. It was going to cost me up to £4k for my boiler to be decommissioned and disposed of, naturally CORGI engineers prefer to supply the boiler they are fitting, re-plumbing work and commissioning.

I live in a 2 bed back to back terrace house with high ceilings, work from home and at the moment I'm using about 10 units a day.
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# 12
mech
Old 03-09-2008, 9:02 PM
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For comparison with amtrakuk, I live alone in a small 3-bed semi (2 bed plus box-room really) with a condensing mains-gas fired combi boiler (it cost £1600 in 2005 to replace my old boiler and hot water tank). My summer gas usage is roughly 6 units per day and electricity usage is 4.8 units/day. Annual usage would be about 13000 kWh/year gas, 2100 kWh/year electricity (if I was at home all year round) which would fit a dual fuel direct debit of £56 a month on my current tariff (Scottish Power Fixed 2011).

Average boiler life expectancy is around 15 years (forget the myths). I wouldn't bother with servicing every year, especially with a new boiler. Nobody in my family ever has.

I wouldn't bother with boiler cover either - £18 a month times 15 years is £3240. More than enough for a few repairs and a new boiler at the end of it.
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# 13
tyllwyd
Old 03-09-2008, 9:16 PM
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We used to have electric night storage heaters (in a 3 bed 1930s house) and last year changed to gas central heating. We have found the gas cheaper, and it heats up a lot quicker when you need it - in particular when we've been away for the weekend and come back to a cold house. On the other hand, with the night storage heaters there was a background heat most of the time, so on average it seemed warmer. The tariff we were on had quite a few daytime hours, so I did have to learn to look at the weather and switch off the heaters manually if it was a warm day - throwing the windows open because it was stuffy on a nice autumn morning was an expensive habit.
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# 14
amtrakuk
Old 04-09-2008, 5:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post
For comparison with amtrakuk, I live alone in a small 3-bed semi (2 bed plus box-room really) with a condensing mains-gas fired combi boiler (it cost 1600 in 2005 to replace my old boiler and hot water tank). My summer gas usage is roughly 6 units per day and electricity usage is 4.8 units/day. Annual usage would be about 13000 kWh/year gas, 2100 kWh/year electricity (if I was at home all year round) which would fit a dual fuel direct debit of 56 a month on my current tariff (Scottish Power Fixed 2011).

Average boiler life expectancy is around 15 years (forget the myths). I wouldn't bother with servicing every year, especially with a new boiler. Nobody in my family ever has.

I wouldn't bother with boiler cover either - 18 a month times 15 years is 3240. More than enough for a few repairs and a new boiler at the end of it.
I can see you're point with servicing a new boiler. I inherited my ravenheat combi with the house when I moved in. Its not until it goes wrong you realise how much you miss it. Im not a corgi engineer so therefor am unable to service or repair the boiler by law.

About 4 years ago the clock went on the boiler which disabled the whole thing (no heating or hot water). I could have got a boiler engineer to replace it but that would have been a 5 day wait and about 50 to replace, even though the clock itself was about 15.

Last year was the nail in the coffin for it. The heat exchanger went and the central heating system needed flushing (the cause of the heat exchanger failing). It was a catch 22 as the BG engineer said on a boiler of this age (about 7-8 years) if he power flushed the system it would burst the heat exchanger. i was told the heat exchanger was not covered by the cover I had.

From what I understand older boilers though not as efficient were built to last. Newer boilers use cheap material to keep the costs down, if the manufacturers were confident their boiler would last 10+ years surely the warranty would reflect this, eg http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/na...&isSearch=true 399 for a condensing combi but only has 1 year warranty
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# 15
bryanb
Old 04-09-2008, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mogedwards View Post

I need to replace my gas boiler, which is about 20 years old and has never had a problem,.
.......Why?
This is an open forum, anyone can post and I just did !
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# 16
mech
Old 04-09-2008, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amtrakuk View Post
I can see you're point with servicing a new boiler. I inherited my ravenheat combi with the house when I moved in. Its not until it goes wrong you realise how much you miss it. Im not a corgi engineer so therefor am unable to service or repair the boiler by law.

About 4 years ago the clock went on the boiler which disabled the whole thing (no heating or hot water). I could have got a boiler engineer to replace it but that would have been a 5 day wait and about 50 to replace, even though the clock itself was about 15.

Last year was the nail in the coffin for it. The heat exchanger went and the central heating system needed flushing (the cause of the heat exchanger failing). It was a catch 22 as the BG engineer said on a boiler of this age (about 7-8 years) if he power flushed the system it would burst the heat exchanger. i was told the heat exchanger was not covered by the cover I had.
Oh dear, rotten luck. Though I notice you don't say he said it was unrepairable, just that it wasn't covered for the repair. Did you investigate what the repair would have cost compared with a new boiler install?

Quote:
From what I understand older boilers though not as efficient were built to last. Newer boilers use cheap material to keep the costs down, if the manufacturers were confident their boiler would last 10+ years surely the warranty would reflect this,
I know that's the accepted wisdom, and old cast-iron boilers are certainly chunkier, but surely there's an element of natural selection going on there? If a boiler has lasted 20 years, it can't have been that shoddy to begin with. But that doesn't mean that all the boilers manufactured 20+ years ago were destined to last that long. I have seen estimates that 20% of boilers in the UK are over 20 years old. Even with a 20% growth in the installed boiler population since then, that means 76% of the boilers in use 20 years ago have been replaced already.

Or look at UK boiler sales. Of an installed base of 21 million, the replacement market is about 1.2 million. That suggests to me an average lifetime of 17.5 years, though that doesn't necessarily mean every boiler that was replaced was unrepairable.

As I understand it, boiler manufacturers are obliged to stock spares for a given model for at least 10 years. This would put a minimum on their life expectancy barring economic factors, but I would be surprised if it was cheaper and less labour to replace a whole boiler (probably involving alterations to the plumbing) than to replace any given part. Obviously, switching to electricity sidesteps the costs in either case (issues of running costs aside), but most people don't seem to go down that route anyway.

Gosh that is ludicrously cheap. I think mine probably retailed at about double that when it was new.

I'm not sure I can hold warranties as an indication of life expectancy though. What warranties did boilers come with 30 years ago?
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# 17
Cardew
Old 05-09-2008, 9:48 AM
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I know that's the accepted wisdom, and old cast-iron boilers are certainly chunkier, but surely there's an element of natural selection going on there? If a boiler has lasted 20 years, it can't have been that shoddy to begin with.
This is an interesting and very important(from a money saving perspective) subject.

I have read plenty of reports that, as modern condensing boilers are stuffed full of electronics, that 10 years life expectancy is as much as you can expect.(in line with the Daily Telegraph article in post #6 above) Reports of heat exchangers and PCBs needing replacement abound.

Now I have no idea if that is true, and it is very difficult to find any reliable data to support or disagree with that figure.

I don't know if you have read this article about a report from Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...erts-warn.html
About boilers they state:

Quote:
Installing a condensing boiler – frequently cited as one of the best ways to improve the energy efficiency of a home – can take 18 years to make a pay back.
The average cost of installing one of these modern boilers is £1,720, but saves on average just £95 off people's gas bills.
I would disagree with their economics!

If someone invested £1,720 it would produce at least £95 in interest. If the boiler lasts 10 years and needs to be renewed, it makes no sense to me to replace a boiler.

The above is why I am soldiering on with my 20 year old gas boiler, because I don't believe it is an economic proposition for me to change.

Last edited by Cardew; 05-09-2008 at 9:55 AM.
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amtrakuk
Old 05-09-2008, 12:14 PM
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Oh dear, rotten luck. Though I notice you don't say he said it was unrepairable, just that it wasn't covered for the repair. Did you investigate what the repair would have cost compared with a new boiler install?

I know that's the accepted wisdom, and old cast-iron boilers are certainly chunkier, but surely there's an element of natural selection going on there? If a boiler has lasted 20 years, it can't have been that shoddy to begin with. But that doesn't mean that all the boilers manufactured 20+ years ago were destined to last that long. I have seen estimates that 20% of boilers in the UK are over 20 years old. Even with a 20% growth in the installed boiler population since then, that means 76% of the boilers in use 20 years ago have been replaced already.

Or look at UK boiler sales. Of an installed base of 21 million, the replacement market is about 1.2 million. That suggests to me an average lifetime of 17.5 years, though that doesn't necessarily mean every boiler that was replaced was unrepairable.

As I understand it, boiler manufacturers are obliged to stock spares for a given model for at least 10 years. This would put a minimum on their life expectancy barring economic factors, but I would be surprised if it was cheaper and less labour to replace a whole boiler (probably involving alterations to the plumbing) than to replace any given part. Obviously, switching to electricity sidesteps the costs in either case (issues of running costs aside), but most people don't seem to go down that route anyway.


Gosh that is ludicrously cheap. I think mine probably retailed at about double that when it was new.

I'm not sure I can hold warranties as an indication of life expectancy though. What warranties did boilers come with 30 years ago?
Hi there.

I was advised to get the boiler changed as was more economical to do this in the long run, new wine in old bottles syndrome.

My mother has a forced air heating system that seems as old as the house, she has been in the house for 18 years and although still under british gas home-care is still going strong except for the odd thermocouple needing replaced every 4 or 5 years. She was worried about having to replace the boiler after one year it was making some rather unhealthy noises. Turns out the fan motor bearings had failed and these were duly replaced.

She asked how much it would be replace the boiler but the BG engineer advised her to keep the forced air system as there is very little to go wrong with forced air systems compared with a radiator system.
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mech
Old 05-09-2008, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardew View Post
This is an interesting and very important(from a money saving perspective) subject.
Yes, so it's important not to be too hasty.
Quote:
I have read plenty of reports that, as modern condensing boilers are stuffed full of electronics, that 10 years life expectancy is as much as you can expect.(in line with the Daily Telegraph article in post #6 above) Reports of heat exchangers and PCBs needing replacement abound.
Heat exchangers, yes. As I understand it, the early British built condensing boilers were dreadfully bad designs. They were just conventional boilers with a second heat exchanger tacked onto them. Small amountss of the acidic condensate would get to the unhardened primary heat exchanger would eventually rot it. Not really relevant to new boilers and statistically unimportant as well, because condensing boilers made up a tiny proportion of the market at that point, but I'm sure people whose boilers failed complained loudly.

I've not heard very many reports of dead PCBs. Anecdotal rather than statistical? I junked my 20 year old washing machine because it was ugly and noisy, not because it didn't work and that was full of electronics too - old enough to have "microprocessor controlled" emblazoned on it in big letters. In fact most electronic goods get junked for mechanical faults or obsolescence, not because they break down. Voyager 1 was launched a few months before I was born and it's still sending data back to Earth.

Still, a replacement PCB for my boiler costs £150, a replacement heat exchanger costs £105. The boiler retailed at something in the region of £800-£900.

Quote:
Now I have no idea if that is true, and it is very difficult to find any reliable data to support or disagree with that figure.
Indeed, but I'm not sure I'd rely on a newspaper. This report: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file20973.pdf has a section on scrapping rates on page 29, though it is from 2005.

Quote:
I don't know if you have read this article about a report from Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...erts-warn.html
About boilers they state:


I would disagree with their economics!

If someone invested £1,720 it would produce at least £95 in interest. If the boiler lasts 10 years and needs to be renewed, it makes no sense to me to replace a boiler.
To be pedantic, you really should take inflation off the interest and probably add it to ongoing savings too.
Quote:
The above is why I am soldiering on with my 20 year old gas boiler, because I don't believe it is an economic proposition for me to change.
I don't think it's sensible to replace a working boiler purely to gain lower running costs, but if a boiler has already failed it's not clear to me that it's better to switch to possibly more expensive fuels.

Old boilers will all fail eventually anyway, it's just a matter of when.

Last edited by mech; 06-09-2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason: I had broken some of the quoting
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Cardew
Old 06-09-2008, 8:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

If someone invested 1,720 it would produce at least 95 in interest.

To be pedantic, you really should take inflation off the interest and probably add it to ongoing savings too.
Agree with all your post above. I thought the Government study in the link you provided was excellent.

I hope indeed that 15 years is a more typical lifespan for boilers than the 10 years that is bandied about.

On the economics of replacement, to be equally pendantic you could add a whole string of other factors into the equation. My point was that so many people seem to adopt a simplistic view about payback times. e.g. Capital expentiture 3,000 annual savings 200 therefore payback in 15 years.
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