POA after death - executor and beneficiary

Leothecat · 29 September 2017 at 7:29AM

My father sadly passed away earlier in the week.

I am one of three children and had POA for my father.
I am (along with my siblings) executor and a beneficiary of the will.

I have been dealing with my father's accounts (paying bills, writing cheques and withdrawing cash for him) for the past 6 months.

When I registered the death and visited the funeral directors, I made payments using my father's debit card.

I've since been told that I could be prosecuted for fraud for making these payments.

Is this correct? How would we be expected to pay for the funeral and all my father's final bills if this is true? Unfortunately I am not in the position to make these payments as they run into thousands for the care home and funeral. There are sufficient funds in my father's account to cover all payments.

I've not yet informed the bank but intend to do so this morning.
My siblings are more than happy for me to look after my father's money and I've kept a spread sheet of all spending for the last 6 months for anyone to look at.

Please can anyone offer any advice? This is making me very anxious on top of everything else.
Thank you.

getmore4less · 29 September 2017 at 7:55AM

POA ceases on death.

although you should no longer deal with finances the threats of fraud etc can be exaggerated by some, just stop doing that now under the POA and account for all cash flow.

You move into estate administration as named executor(s) you get the powers from the will(the probate grant just confirms this and makes it easy for institutions).

Those owed money have to wait.

Funeral expenses could have been released by the executor asking the bank and showing them the invoice.

probably worth reading a few of the "what to do when someone dies" documents to get you started if not familiar with the administration process.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4896302
https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/what-to-do-after-a-death/
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/money-matters/legal-issues/what-to-do-when-someone-dies/
http://www.which.co.uk/money/what-to-do-when-someone-dies/

loulou41 · 29 September 2017 at 8:12AM

I hope somebody more experienced replied to your post. I do not think it is legal to use the deceased debit cards. You said you have poa but it does not make it legal after his death. What you should have done is to have a joint accounts? I am thinking ahead and am leaving a sum of money with my daughter to cover the costs of the funeral. It was ignorance on your part if you explained it to the bank. I hope you will not get into trouble. Sorry for your loss you do not need this worry as well.

Yorkshireman99 · 29 September 2017 at 8:44AM

Leothecat wrote: »

My father sadly passed away earlier in the week.

I am one of three children and had POA for my father.
I am (along with my siblings) executor and a beneficiary of the will.

I have been dealing with my father's accounts (paying bills, writing cheques and withdrawing cash for him) for the past 6 months.

When I registered the death and visited the funeral directors, I made payments using my father's debit card.

I've since been told that I could be prosecuted for fraud for making these payments.

Is this correct? How would we be expected to pay for the funeral and all my father's final bills if this is true? Unfortunately I am not in the position to make these payments as they run into thousands for the care home and funeral. There are sufficient funds in my father's account to cover all payments.

I've not yet informed the bank but intend to do so this morning.
My siblings are more than happy for me to look after my father's money and I've kept a spread sheet of all spending for the last 6 months for anyone to look at.

Please can anyone offer any advice? This is making me very anxious on top of everything else.
Thank you.

ALthough you could be guilty of fraud it is unlikely you will be prosecuted. The bank may not be happy about the unautorised use of the card which must cease. How much is the estate worth? Is there a property involved?

TonyMMM · 29 September 2017 at 8:54AM

Don't worry - so long as the money is accounted for no-one is going to to worry about potential fraud (which it isn't anyway).

It is quite normal for the funeral director to send their bill direct to the bank who will then pay it from the account of the deceased .... you just did it direct.

As above - your POA has ceased and you shouldn't be accessing your father's accounts now. But, as executor you will need to access his accounts to deal with the estate - depending on the amount in the accounts, the bank may or may not require probate to be granted to you first.

Margot123 · 29 September 2017 at 9:16AM

Please accept my condolences.
Do not worry about being prosecuted over the payments you made. I made exactly the same mistake just a few months ago. I was a POA, and in the midst of the grief, I paid for essential items (house insurance, final demands etc) using the deceased's card, even though I have since found out that I shouldn't have.
I was so worried that I consulted a solicitor, who reassured me that no one would consider prosecuting an individual who acted in the best interests of the estate.
I have since been to the bank and explained the use of the cards, and they found no issue at all when provided with evidence of what the money was spent on. The manager was very sympathetic, but also made sure that the account was locked until probate.
You have enough on your plate with the grieving, please do be reassured that nothing will come of what you have done.
Also, remember that you must return the POA document as that ceased on your Father's passing.

Malthusian · 29 September 2017 at 9:29AM

Who told you that you could be prosecuted for fraud? Given that the country is rife with Ponzi scams and pension scams for which no-one is ever prosecuted, the idea that someone would be prosecuted for using a bank card where no actual loss has arisen is laughable.

You have not gained anything from what you did and no-one has suffered a loss (because the funeral director's bill would have been paid anyway). So the idea that a fraud has taken place collapses at the first hurdle. Fraud Act 2006 S2 (1)(b) and the equivalent clauses of S3 and 4. At worst it is a breach of the bank's Ts and Cs, which is not a criminal offence.

People do say some daft things.

Linton · 29 September 2017 at 9:33AM

Once you have told the bank of your father's death which should be done as one of the first actions after death you wont be able to use the card. Using the card was wrong, but should not have any ill effect provided you have good records of what happened to the money.

Paying for funerals and final bills should not cost you anything. The funeral director can send the bill to the bank who will pay him. For any other debts you can tell the creditors that they will be paid once the money in the bank account has been released. Presumably the care home will be used to this.

Keep_pedalling · 29 September 2017 at 9:47AM

loulou41 wrote: »

I am thinking ahead and am leaving a sum of money with my daughter to cover the costs of the funeral. It was ignorance on your part if you explained it to the bank. I hope you will not get into trouble. Sorry for your loss you do not need this worry as well.

Have you considered a pre payment plan? If, as is likely, you live for many more years any sum you give her now to cover funeral costs, is likely to become woefully short due to inflation. There is also the issue that she could run into financial difficult, or even diebefore you.

That may sound a bit alarmist, but these things do happen, which is why a solicitor will talk through all these what is scenarios when making a will with you.

PasturesNew · 29 September 2017 at 11:58AM

It is technically correct. The minute a person dies their account should not be touched by any card holders.

Do not fear. Many people have made exactly the same mistake/assumption that you have.

There are ways forward ... somebody will point you to what to do.

The funeral director won't like to set up an account for you - they do want to either get the money up front, or the name of a solicitor who is doing the probate (as they know they'll be paid), but if you're doing it yourself they don't have any assurances that you'll simply say "Ha ha - so sue me ... I'm not paying; what'll you do? Dig him up and prop him up against my front door? I don't think so!" as they then book a holiday with the estate money and go off on a jolly.

Margot123 · 29 September 2017 at 5:01PM

Following on from my earlier post, it would be wise for you to insist that all utility companies etc address any bills to 'The Executors of............'. I made the mistake of allowing the deceased's bills to come to my home address, addressed to me. Guess who has been threatened with debt collectors? Needless to say, I have now paid these bills in the hope that probate will repay!

POA after death - executor and beneficiary

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